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Author Topic: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?  (Read 1762 times)

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Offline Ken W2

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Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« on: June 10, 2021, 11:27:04 pm »
Hello all: Here is a Constantius II of Constantinople with the ubiquitous FTR reverse. 22.82 mm  6.46 gr.  I’m thinking as to denomination it’s a centenionalis. I restored it from an uncleaned lot. It looks better in hand and frankly looked better before waxing, but I still wax LRBs because I think it’s best for conservation. I welcome input about the above, but my post is about what Roman coinage reflects about human nature. I respect the Romans for celebrating their prowess and dominance of their world, rather than shrinking from it. I mean, really, my enemy has fallen off his horse and I’m about to run a spear through him, yep, “happy times are restored.”  The ubiquitous Gloria Romanorum issues likewise celebrate such dominance. I’m no expert on world coinage, but I am familiar with the coinage of Western Europe and the US and can’t think of a nation that through its coinage more overtly celebrated it’s dominance achieved through violence. Is there another culture that did so?  Is the lack of such coinage from other Western European nations, at least in part, result of the so called Enlightenment ? Think about it, if I tried to have a t-shirt made with this FTR design on it there’s a good chance my order would be rejected as insensitive or politically incorrect, when in reality it’s just a reflection of human nature. Just some ramblings on a Thursday night. I’d be interested in your thoughts and any input on other cultures who so overtly celebrated its dominance achieved through violence.
Ken


Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2021, 09:00:57 am »
Human nature has changed since Roman times. They were surrounded by human death from disease and injury. There was a lot more suffering in life too. No pain killers. Many people would have been crippled by injuries or surviving disease. Killing including suicide was done without much respect for human life. We are not perfect but we are, I believe, improving.

On the other hand, when it comes to war, they did understand peace through strength and that peace comes after total victory. In most cases, only after destroying your enemy without mercy can peace and nation building successfully begin.
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Offline SC

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2021, 05:40:59 pm »
Constans and Constantius II needed to figure out how to portray the Empire - really themselves - for the 1100th anniversary of Rome in April 348.

Eight years earlier their brother had been killed at the start of what could have been a major civil war against them.  Three years before that the three brothers had overseen the massacre of cousins and other important officials left over from their father's regime.  Now the two brothers barely got along - refusing to recognize each other's consuls a couple of years before.

No depiction of the true state of the Empire would be acceptable, so they went for what so many other uncertain authoritarian regimes have done - chest-thumping propaganda.  So, put out a bunch of coin designs with generic images of military prowess - "aren't we great, look how we have defeated our enemies".  Base them on some recent victories in Mesopotamia and Britain but make them generic enough that everyone sees great Rome in them.

You are right that there is nothing else really like it - though other late Roman coin types, in particular with captives being dragged around by their hair, are close.  Today it is the king of thing you expect to see in propaganda by terrorist groups like ISIS or the neo-Nazi Atomwaffen Division.

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Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2021, 01:07:56 pm »

Hey fellows:  Thanks for your responses.  Joe, I don't think human nature has changed in the last 2000 years or so, and think it will take much longer than that for fundamental human nature to evolve.  Of course, for most on the planet the human condition has changed dramatically in that 2000 years, due largely to steady technolgical advances resulting in a greatly improved ability to care for ourselves, produce food, and otherwise master/exploit natural resources.  We have also exponentially improved our abilty to kill each other, so hopefully we can continue to keep the destructive side of our nature in check.   

Shawn, thanks for putting my observation in a better, period-specific context.  It had not occured to me that the graphic depiction of violence like on the FTR issues is limited to post-Constantine I rule and then softens to the dragging of captives and stepping on captives seen in the GR issues up until about the time of Gratian or a little later.  There were pre, during, and post-Constantine I rule despictions of power and conquest-- I'm thinking the bound captives, captured trophies of war, Judea, Danube, and Germania issues (and ilkely others)-- sometimes showing the conquered peoples in a submissive posture or state of despair, but those are far less graphic than the FTR issues, especially the soldier spearing fallen horseman type.  (BTW, how is the book coming along ?).

I'm still searching my brain for coinage of other cultures with a design which celebrates power and conquest to even the softer degree of the GR issues-- and cannot think of one.  In fact, the only other depiction of violence on coinage I can recall is the beautiful St. George slaying the dragon design seen on the Bristish sovereign and some other denominations.  Of course, though, that's a depiction of good triumphing over evil.  That design-- especially how it is framed on a full sovereign-- gets my vote for the best design on a coin of all time.  Hey, I think I just came up with a new poll-- a vote on best design on a Roman coin of all time.

Thanks again.

Ken             

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2021, 02:07:35 pm »
Human nature has changed since Roman times. They were surrounded by human death from disease and injury. There was a lot more suffering in life too. No pain killers. Many people would have been crippled by injuries or surviving disease. Killing including suicide was done without much respect for human life. We are not perfect but we are, I believe, improving.

On the other hand, when it comes to war, they did understand peace through strength and that peace comes after total victory. In most cases, only after destroying your enemy without mercy can peace and nation building successfully begin.

Offering a divergent view here, Roman medicine was more advanced than anything the world would see again until the late islamic period, and in western europe, not until the very end of the renaissance.  Romans could expect to survive many ailments that would kill you in the medieval world, and they didn't do stupid things like bleed evil humors our of already weakened people.  There were also far fewer communicable diseases like tuberculosis and syphilis in the ancient world - the few diseases that did run along roman roads, like the aurelian plague, were devastating and noteworthy for being the exception. 

The closer you liver to the frontier, the more precarious life was.  Live close enough, and you might fall victim to barbarian raids or lack of access to the best medical care found in larger towns and cities.  Much like today, for many people in the world. 

I think the Romans lived pragmatically in that their economy was built on conquering lands to plunder for gold and silver to pay ever-more expensive military costs. It was a delicate balance between new loot and defending what you had in terms of territory, taxable population, resources, etc.  Outside the Roman border, much of the world was still tribal and the tribes largely had violent tendencies after millenia of fighting with their neighboring warlords, clan leaders and kings over things like their gods, access to women, the best hunting grounds, or perceived insult.  For Rome to civilize these areas, they had to stamp it out radically, and often enslave the trouble makers - another commodity upon which the empire's economy was dependent. 

Ultimately, I think citizens and freedmen understood their prosperity was tied to the strength of the public administration and the legions.  Social justice is a luxury today only for those with secure borders and pacifist neighbors.  The Romans had neither, and they knew it all too well. 
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Offline Ron C2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2021, 02:13:55 pm »

Hey fellows:  Thanks for your responses.  Joe, I don't think human nature has changed in the last 2000 years or so, and think it will take much longer than that for fundamental human nature to evolve.  Of course, for most on the planet the human condition has changed dramatically in that 2000 years, due largely to steady technolgical advances resulting in a greatly improved ability to care for ourselves, produce food, and otherwise master/exploit natural resources.  We have also exponentially improved our abilty to kill each other, so hopefully we can continue to keep the destructive side of our nature in check.   

Shawn, thanks for putting my observation in a better, period-specific context.  It had not occured to me that the graphic depiction of violence like on the FTR issues is limited to post-Constantine I rule and then softens to the dragging of captives and stepping on captives seen in the GR issues up until about the time of Gratian or a little later.  There were pre, during, and post-Constantine I rule despictions of power and conquest-- I'm thinking the bound captives, captured trophies of war, Judea, Danube, and Germania issues (and ilkely others)-- sometimes showing the conquered peoples in a submissive posture or state of despair, but those are far less graphic than the FTR issues, especially the soldier spearing fallen horseman type.  (BTW, how is the book coming along ?).

I'm still searching my brain for coinage of other cultures with a design which celebrates power and conquest to even the softer degree of the GR issues-- and cannot think of one.  In fact, the only other depiction of violence on coinage I can recall is the beautiful St. George slaying the dragon design seen on the Bristish sovereign and some other denominations.  Of course, though, that's a depiction of good triumphing over evil.  That design-- especially how it is framed on a full sovereign-- gets my vote for the best design on a coin of all time.  Hey, I think I just came up with a new poll-- a vote on best design on a Roman coin of all time.

Thanks again.

Ken             

Ken - here are some points to ponder.  I'm Canadian, and here are a few eamples of coins minted in Canada (legal tender) that might raise similar questions to yours if thye are dug up 2000 years from now.  How do you think they would be perceived?











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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2021, 02:50:48 pm »
Hey fellows:  Thanks for your responses.  Joe, I don't think human nature has changed in the last 2000 years or so, and think it will take much longer than that for fundamental human nature to evolve.           

I think the state of human nature can be measured by what is considered acceptable behavior toward others and what is not acceptable. From that perspective, the evolution of human nature has been significant.
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Offline antoninus1

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 03:55:14 am »
I have also been fascinated by this frank demonstration of roman imperial power over their enemies on their coins and haven´t found anything alike in the coinage of other cultures so far.

But it started already earlier. I didn´t check it, but was it a Flavian emperor (Titus?) who first had himself illustrated killing another human being on a coin?

And the I find these 2 antoniniani of Gallienus and Numerianus interesting. Gallienus is marching over a fallen enemy who is pledging for mercy. Gallienus´ spear is pointing upward, so maybe that could indcate that he will not kill the helpless soldier.
In contrary to that Numerianus´ spear is pointing downward. This enemy might not be so lucky. And, of course, Numerianus is a PACATOR ORBIS.

Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2021, 02:07:59 pm »

Thanks for the responses fellows and sorry I have not replied.  We've gotten off into a deep subject here and I just haven't had time to gather my thoughts.  Daughter getting married Saturday and otherwise very busy.

Ken 

Offline SC

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2021, 04:11:36 pm »
Congratulations.  But trust me, don't try to modify the wedding cake with a Roman coin design in icing......

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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2021, 11:05:50 pm »
I don't think human nature has changed (I am retired Army and was in Iraq and Afghanistan) and they did have pain killers. In fact, I would argue that the most important medicine in history and pre-history is the opiate. Particularly in a world without decent medicine, this was indispensable. And, despite how vilified it is today, it is still extremely important when medical science is inadequate as it often is and is still routinely used. Alcohol was also used for pain killing purposes, as well as a few other substances. There still isn't a better pain killer ever invented than the opium poppy. Life expectancy was also low back in the day, but those that made it to adulthood could live long lives.

One thing about Roman coins is one could possibly argue that the violence on some coins was a warning to others to "not mess with us." And it could be argued it reduced violence perhaps. I am just playing devil's advocate here. I think many Romans would argue that they used the military to enforce peace. Certainly, that was one of the appeals Augustus used to get support for the empire. We today say the same thing, but we don't put drone kills on coins. In Roman days, the violence was pretty up front, not hidden like it is today. We aren't really more evolved, we just pretend we are. Plus, in the case of the US, we have some really boring coins.

Virgil

Human nature has changed since Roman times. They were surrounded by human death from disease and injury. There was a lot more suffering in life too. No pain killers.

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2021, 02:24:43 pm »
Plus, in the case of the US, we have some really boring coins.


Roman coins span something like 15 centuries.  Likely if the USA still exists 12 centuries from now, it will have a rich numismatic history, full of variety :)
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Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2021, 03:41:52 pm »

Hello folks:  Thanks for all the responses.  As I reflected on them, I've come to think the answer to the question that is the title of this thread is: "of course it's an honest reflection of human nature, as all art and human product and conduct is on some level reflective of our nature."  I think the more precise questions I was getting to are: is the depiction of violence on Roman coinage a more honest depiction of human nature than other coinage and is it worthy of our admiration for that trait; and, why did the Romans so frequently depict violence (or other depictions of dominance) on coinage ?  I think the latter question is well answered in your responses-- they were a product of the times-- and sometimes very specific times-- to propagandize, celebrate, and warn.  As to the former questions, I think the answers are yes and yes.  I'm not saying running a spear through another person is the worst the Romans could do-- think crucifiction or the Gemonian stairs-- but they did not shrink from their nature, they embraced it (seemingly).  Today we have the capabilty to kill and mame on a scale the Romans could not have imagined, and at times have unleashed that horror, but most would say we are more civilized than in Roman times, and perhaps even would say human nature has improved.  I recently heard a story on NPR about a weapon system called Brimstone.  Human effort guides a missle to a target zone and then 22 smaller missles are unleashed and AI selects the targets in that zone for killing and destruction.  Of course, that's just one, extreme example of being remote from the killing we are doing that we have become better and better at as we have become more civilized and our nature has evolved. Ha ! I don't think that is reflective of an improving human nature. I wonder if emporers and others involved in the decison making about the design of coins had debates about whether designs were too graphic, too soft, etc.

Ken   

Offline SC

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2021, 08:15:46 am »
Personally I'd be wary of making equivalencies.  We may have more advanced killing techniques but we can't ignore the fact that the Romans, like many people before our times, were completely barbarous and callous compared to us.  All of the following were true at least for large chunks of time:

Unwanted babies were left in the trash - not in a headline making way by poor unwed mothers but on a daily basis and by the best of families.  There was no medical care for the poor.  Women were basically property. Torture was the mandated way to question slaves and later anyone who was not "noble".  Slavery was universal - sure it was "color blind", any race could be a slave, but that what happened to lucky civilians on the losing side of conflict.  The unlucky ones were massacred to the last child.  If you read contemporary writing and look past their inital claims you can see they were generally, selfish, venal, boorish, etc.

Not saying we can't admire them for all the good too, just not to forget they were an unpleasant lot compared to what most of us expect today.

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Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2021, 09:48:19 am »

Hey Shawn:  I get your point about making comparisons. However, I submit there are modern, but "nicer," examples of similar behavoir today, e.g. now we kill fetuses in the womb and call it a Constitutional right, instead of leaving babies on the trash heap. That's another example of how we employ modern technology to anntenuate ourselves from the ugly results of our nature. 

The last book I read on Roman history was Mary Beard's SPQR, which I thought was pretty good.  I've never read a Roman contemporary historical work.  Do you recommend one that has a decent chronological scope ?

Ken     

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2021, 12:29:14 pm »
Everything Mary Beard wrote is great.  I would read it all - twice.  (Only half kidding).

As for Roman stuff I am sure there is a better bibliography elsewhere but for the Imperial period I would read:

Tacitus, Annals
Suetonius, Lives of the 12 Caesars
Livy, History of Rome
Pliny the Elder, Natural History
Pliny the Younger, Letters
Ammianus Marcellinus
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
St. Augustine, Confessions

All are of course so old that they are available as free downloads - but modern translations are generally better than the older ones so it is sometimes worth paying a bit for a more modern version.

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Offline TenthGen

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2021, 03:16:33 pm »
Quote
The last book I read on Roman history was Mary Beard's SPQR, which I thought was pretty good.  I've never read a Roman contemporary historical work.  Do you recommend one that has a decent chronological scope ?

Livy's History of Rome is probably the best intro that will really show you how an ancient author writes and thinks. That said, it is also quite long. Suetonius, Lives of the 12 Caesars is shorter but also likely less accurate. Tacitus, Annals is also very good and probably the most accurate of the group. Polybius is also great for a Greek perspective with extreme accuracy. Josephus is great to get a Jewish perspective, too. Finally, Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico is great for keeping your attention and letting Caesar tell you just how great Caesar is.

Honestly, I'd start with Livy. That's where I started and I don't regret it. But it is a long book(s).

Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2021, 10:14:26 pm »

Thanks for the guidance fellows.

Ken

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2021, 12:14:54 am »
Here is a great book that Lucia Carbone recommended to me as an overview of all of Roman history. It is a massive textbook that covers all of Roman history. I had never looked at the history from the spectrum of the entire time span and, while it doesn't get into Byzantine history per se, it recognizes that the Roman Empire did actually last until 1453.

A History of Rome 4th Edition
by Marcel Le Glay  (Author), Jean-Louis Voisin (Author), Yann Le Bohec (Author), David Cherry (Author), Donald G. Kyle (Author), Eleni Manolaraki (Editor)

It is a textbook and insanely expensive, I bought it used for $7.00. It is a very good read for a textbook. I highly recommend it for the broad picture. All the contemporary sources others have mentioned are discussed in detail as to their usefulness and bias. This textbook might be helpful before reading those so you will know where they are coming from. Can you imagine in 1,000 years reading the New York Times articles on Trump and believing they are objective accounts? There was some of that kind of thing going on in the Roman days, as well. LOL.

Regarding human nature, I think the only substantial difference between us and the Romans is they were completely open about what they were. We pretend we are not barbaric while a glance at recent and current history would argue differently in every realm from war to income disparity to the elites controlling everything to even healthcare (in the US, anyway). One of the things about reading the Roman history (and that of Greeks, etc) is how all the nasty things they did, we do the same, we just have different technology and we pretend we have good reasons for what we do and are really nice guys. Well, the Romans thought they also had good reasons, too. It is quite remarkable, really, on a fundamental level how little things have changed.

Virgil

Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2021, 08:51:25 am »

Hey Virgil:  I'll definitely see if I can pick that book up affordably somewhere too.  I started Tacitus' Annals last weekend, but then got sidetracked on several articles about alloys used in Ants and the debasement of silver content trying to figure out, hopelessy, a hard line (or even an accepted blurry line) of demarcation between what is an RSC and what is not.

Thanks for the book referral. 

Ken

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2021, 01:41:35 pm »
Hey Virgil:  I'll definitely see if I can pick that book up affordably somewhere too.  I started Tacitus' Annals last weekend, but then got sidetracked on several articles about alloys used in Ants and the debasement of silver content trying to figure out, hopelessly, a hard line (or even an accepted blurry line) of demarcation between what is an RSC and what is not.

RSC draws its line under the base antoninianii of Gallienus and Postumus at the end of volume four. Volume five begins with the recognisably silver issues of Carausius and the equally recognisably silver coins issued by the monetary reform of the Tetrarchy. The base radiates from Carausius and Diocletian onward are not considered to be silver by RSC.
So, since RSC is a well renowned and respected reference work, I would go along with where they drew the line. If appearance is an issue for you, you can get nice silver looking coins from both Gallienus and Postumus if you don't want to have any obviously base metal coins in your collection.

Alex


Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2021, 06:00:03 pm »

Thanks Alex.  I have the five RSC volumes (1982 ed I think) and had considered using it to set the end point of my RSC collection, as you suggest.  I didn't come to that conclusion earlier (or easy) because it's obvious that post-Caracalla the Ant really isn't silver any more, except in appearance-- by almost any definition they clearly are billon.  But I've finally accepted that in the hobby it's acceptable, if not customary, to treat billon coins as RSCs. Since I am stopping with Ants for now, I think that means my collection will span post-Republic denarii through pre-reform Ants, up to and including the pre-reform XXI radiates of Diocletian. I already have some decent to nice pre-Tetrarchy Ants, and will seek billon coins with good silvering up to and including pre-reform Diocletian.  I'll think about expanding into the Argenteus, Siliqua etc later, but on a cursory review of the market think those will be more pricey and harder to find.  Thanks again.

Ken         

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2021, 06:14:43 pm »

Thanks Alex.  I have the five RSC volumes (1982 ed I think) and had considered using it to set the end point of my RSC collection, as you suggest.  I didn't come to that conclusion earlier (or easy) because it's obvious that post-Caracalla the Ant really isn't silver any more, except in appearance-- by almost any definition they clearly are billon.  But I've finally accepted that in the hobby it's acceptable, if not customary, to treat billon coins as RSCs. Since I am stopping with Ants for now, I think that means my collection will span post-Republic denarii through pre-reform Ants, up to and including the pre-reform XXI radiates of Diocletian. I already have some decent to nice pre-Tetrarchy Ants, and will seek billon coins with good silvering up to and including pre-reform Diocletian.  I'll think about expanding into the Argenteus, Siliqua etc later, but on a cursory review of the market think those will be more pricey and harder to find.  Thanks again.

Ken       

It's good to know what you want to collect and stick to it.  An un-focused collection isn't for everyone, while a focus helps you separate what purchases from chaff inho. 

If not already done, I'd also recommend you start a gallery here at FORUM.  I consider it an activity that improves my enjoyment of the hobby, including the photography challenges.
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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2021, 11:24:12 pm »
I hope I am not going totally off topic here, but two things come to mind in reading this thread. I am not very experienced with Roman coins, but I have started to look at them more and more. I also collect mostly bronze, but I acquire coins that interest me across the board, including Crusader and Byzantine and that goes beyond Greek or Roman Provincial from mostly Greek (or once Greek) cities. My questions/comments go beyond what RSC is specifically about and I suppose I may be suggesting an expansion of it or maybe just something else entirely.

1. Is a billon not considered a silver coin? I always considered debased silver still silver. I guess for me, if it was minted and "passed off" as a silver coin, it is in the silver coin category. Much like I still consider US quarters and dimes to be silver coins. They held the same value regardless of the amount of silver, inflation aside.

2. Why are Byzantine coins not considered Roman? It was the continuation of the Roman Empire. It was the Roman Empire for 1,000 years. They used a lot of billon. I have never understood the cut off of what is Roman and what is not.

Virgil

Offline Ken W2

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Re: Roman coinage-an honest reflection of human nature?
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2021, 12:10:02 am »

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If not already done, I'd also recommend you start a gallery here at FORUM.  I consider it an activity that improves my enjoyment of the hobby, including the photography challenges.

Hey Ron:  I hope you are well.  Thanks for prodding me to start a gallery.  That is perhaps the one area of the hobby/FORVM participation I need to most make a major improvement in.  You can see from my posts the "quality" of the photos I can produce with a smart phone.  While I recognize my collection of 300 +/- cleaned, attributable LRBs and 100 +/-  RSCs is modest, both in number and condition, I'm doubtful that a smart phone generated gallery will do it justice.  I just can't find the time or money to invest to produce the quality photos commonly seen here.  It is, however, one of my goals to better share my collection via a gallery in the near term, "near" being a relative term !

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Is a billon not considered a silver coin? I always considered debased silver still silver. I guess for me, if it was minted and "passed off" as a silver coin, it is in the silver coin category. Much like I still consider US quarters and dimes to be silver coins. They held the same value regardless of the amount of silver, inflation aside.

Hey Virgil:  That is exactly the question I have wrestled with for some time.  Yes, I ultimately decided, as you have, that even the XXI pre-reform silvered billon radiates should be considered, legitimately, an RSC FOR PURPOSES OF COLLECTING RSCs. But, I don't think the pre-1965 and post-1964 U.S. silver coinage comparison is exactly apple to apples.  To be sure, dropping from the 70 % silver Ants of Caracalla to the 4.5 % Ants of Aurelian, Probus or Diocletion was a transformation to fiat currency, there nevertheless was an INTENTIONAL inclusion of the white precious metal in the alloy and the surface.  From 1964 to 1965, at least with the primary coins of circulation-- the dime and quarter-- the U.S. went from 90 % silver directly to fiat coinage.

Ken     

 

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity