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Author Topic: Collotype plate problem back in 1922  (Read 1544 times)

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Offline Steve Moulding

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Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« on: January 06, 2022, 11:34:00 pm »
Hi all - I'm not sure whether this goes under Books & References, or Coin Photography...but as it's a photographic-process question, I'll ask it on the photography board. Please move, if needed.

It seems coin plates in many (most?) of the early 20thC catalogs were collotypes, produced by (from what I've read) a quite complicated process. The results are usually very nice and today scan very well, even at 1200dpi. 

However, looking in detail at the plates in the 1922 Naville IV Sale it's clear that for the first 8 plates something went wrong and I'm wondering what happened. Basically, all coin images for Plates I - VIII are criss-crossed by a web of seemingly random lines. By Plate IX, everything is fine.

It's not damage to my catalog as you can see the same thing on the Heidelberg online copy if you zoom in.  From my limited reading, I understand the collotype process involves coating plates with gelatins and, at some point, drying them. I'm wondering if it was the drying process that went awry, and cracks or wrinkles developed.
It's curious as Naville plates were usually very good - they weren't a cheap house. I don't recall seeing this before.

Do any photographic-process experts have any insights?

Thanks,

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2022, 10:47:18 pm »
A couple of things I would point out.

Firstly, in 1922, they didn't have good macro-photography flash technology available to them, and shiny coins (gold and silver especially) couldn't be photographed well without looking washed out or over-exposed.  From what I've read, they got around this by making plaster casts of the coins, painting those a neutral flat color, and then photographing these casts, likely using daylight for the exposures.  This is perhaps the process you are talking about.

If, instead, you mean the process of reproducing photographs in a book format, there is a great read on the evolution of that process here:

https://www.loc.gov/rr/print/coll/photographically-illustrated-books-and-photobooks.html

I don't think any of that would explain the artifacts on the plates though. 

You also have to remember, that in those days, they would photograph with a large frame film camera, not 35mm, and because film was expensive, a good many coins would be on the same oversized negative.  When those negatives were later used to create photographs suitable for printing operations, any issues with the celluloid negative fabric would show as "scratches" on the exposed image, much like you see in your catalogue.

If I were a betting man, I'd say the negative got scratched before the catalogue went to print, and for cost or schedule reasons, they used the images anyway, instead of re-shooting the coins.  This could easily happen if, for example, someone pulled the negative in and out of an envelope carelessly, rested heavy objects on it in the office, dropped it on a dirty floor and then brushed it off, or whatever.  They were fragile items. 

Back in the day, these plates were used to sell coins - they likely weren't produced thinking someone would still be referencing it 100 years later. If the images were good enough to sell the coin, then they were good enough to serve their purpose.
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Offline esnible

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2022, 11:15:35 pm »
I don't know the answer.

Collotype had a lot of steps that could get screwed up.  The photo negative, the positive transparency, the gel, the stone ... any one of them could get scratched or streaked.

Collotype is said to have only been good for about 1000 copies, and the early copies are said to look better.  This is due to fading, not scratching, I believe.

Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2022, 09:21:04 pm »
Hi Ron and Ed.


If, instead, you mean the process of reproducing photographs in a book format, there is a great read on the evolution of that process here:

https://www.loc.gov/rr/print/coll/photographically-illustrated-books-and-photobooks.html

I don't think any of that would explain the artifacts on the plates though. 


Ron, yes I meant more the collotype photography process, as opposed to the plaster casting of the coins, though they were both popular back then, the plaster casts for the very good reasons you mention.  Thanks for the reference too...I look forward to reading that!


You also have to remember, that in those days, they would photograph with a large frame film camera, not 35mm, and because film was expensive, a good many coins would be on the same oversized negative.  When those negatives were later used to create photographs suitable for printing operations, any issues with the celluloid negative fabric would show as "scratches" on the exposed image, much like you see in your catalogue.

If I were a betting man, I'd say the negative got scratched before the catalogue went to print, and for cost or schedule reasons, they used the images anyway, instead of re-shooting the coins.  This could easily happen if, for example, someone pulled the negative in and out of an envelope carelessly, rested heavy objects on it in the office, dropped it on a dirty floor and then brushed it off, or whatever.  They were fragile items. 


I don't know the answer.

Collotype had a lot of steps that could get screwed up.  The photo negative, the positive transparency, the gel, the stone ... any one of them could get scratched or streaked.

Collotype is said to have only been good for about 1000 copies, and the early copies are said to look better.  This is due to fading, not scratching, I believe.

Scratches do seem the most plausible and as I've now learned from Ed, any number of things could get scratched along the way.  My original thought was not scratches but a wrinkling during the gel drying process. However, that kind of damage I'd guess would be much coarser, get noticed immediately, and thrown out. And these really do just look like scratches. I'd side with your bet and say the first 8 large format negatives somehow got scratched too late in the process / too costly to go back and re-shoot.

I guess we'll never know but it's a good prod for me to go learn more about collotype, given that I look at it so much.

Thank you again gentlemen for the suggestions and for taking the time to answer this.

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline esnible

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2022, 10:11:23 am »
I read a great article on Collotype, but I can't remember the title or where it was published.

A related article that you would like is Oliver Hoover's article "Paper, Plaster, Sulfur, Foil: A Brief History of Numismatic Data Transmission", although it only has a few paragraphs on Collotype.

https://www.academia.edu/28753342/Paper_Plaster_Sulfur_Foil_A_Brief_History_of_Numismatic_Data_Transmission

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2022, 01:21:28 pm »
Examining Plate VII with a magnifying glass, I note scratches only on lot 190 that you reproduce above, lots 180 and 188, and lot 176 (a small scratch from the tip of Zeus's nose). Might these not be just scratches on the actual coins rather than botched photography or printing?

On Plate II, I see a light diagonal scratch in the field between the two lots 55 and 58. Otherwise, I found no visible scratches on any other coins in a quick perusal of Plates I-VIII.
Curtis Clay

Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2022, 01:36:12 pm »
Hi Curtis. Well, that's interesting!!
How about lots 181 and 189 from Plate VII. Do you see those scratches?


Steve

edit: sorry...that's way too small to see anything...one second
Steve Moulding
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Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2022, 01:39:17 pm »
Larger snip of 181
Steve Moulding
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Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2022, 01:40:52 pm »
and 189
Steve Moulding
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2022, 02:05:10 pm »
Sure, I see those scratches.

But I am still far from seeing them on "basically, all coin images for Plates I - VIII", as you wrote.

Don't you see any possibility that these are real scratches on a small percentage of the coins?
Curtis Clay

Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2022, 02:19:07 pm »
Hi Curtis...no I see this on most coins, to varying degrees. Here are two different lots from Plate II. Same thing. I don't think they're actual scratches on the coins.
Very interesting you don't see them. I wonder if they reused the negatives?

Steve
Steve Moulding
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Offline Ron C2

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2022, 02:45:50 pm »
Curtis,

I don't know what other imagery you may have access to from this catalogue (I don't have a copy), so I could well be off base here.  That said, I photograph a lot of coins, including scratched ones, and a physical coin scratch would not look like many of the scratches seen in these images when photographed.  Typically, a linear scratch on a coin would not cross a high relief without leaving the surface of the flan on one side of the relief.  this would manifest as a gap in the scratch line in the nooks and crannies of the coin relief.  You would see this break.  To illustrate what I mean, take modern high relief coin and draw a pencil across it quickly. you will notice that the pencil mark will have a gap where the pencil jumps off the relief and onto the flan field.

Next, if you photograph that coin with a macro lens, any scratches toward the outer edges of the coin, even straight ones, will have some curvature to them because of photographic perspective and the fluctuating height of the coin surface.  These images don't seem to show that aspherical distortion, making a scratched negative or printing plate more likely.

Just my $.02 worth.
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2022, 04:00:11 pm »
All I have is an original, printed copy of the catalogue.

Curiously, the scratches are clearer on the enlargements Steve shows above than on the original plates, even under a magnifying glass.

Is it significant that of the seven scratched coins that Steve reproduces, two are one above the other at the upper left on Plate II (lots 33 and 37), and the other five in a column at the upper left on Plate VII (lots 180, 188, 190, 181, and 189)?

Maybe the scratches were not on the coins as I proposed, but were damage affecting the upper left of two of the plates of plaster casts that had been glued to cardboard or to panes of glass so that each plate could be photographed with a single exposure, or damage to the upper left of two of the resulting negatives or printing plates, as Ron suggests?

That was how plaster casts were photographed by the Ashmolean Museum for my thesis in 1972: glued to glass panes by myself, then photographed with one shot per plate and printed in natural size by the photography department.

Curtis Clay

Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2022, 04:52:03 pm »
Hi Curtis and Ron,

So, I wouldn't read too much into the plate position of the coins I showed so far. That's just me choosing a plate, then randomly going somewhere near to the top or center and taking a screenshot to use as an example. I do see the same 'scratches' elsewhere on the plates. The latest example is not too far from center bottom of Plate IV. Bottom right in that plate is also 'scratched'. Interestingly the 8pm-2pm 'scratch' on lot 103 shown here seems more significant than a simple dust scratch. It has some real width.

The source of the images is my own set of 1200dpi scans of my physical paper catalog. In case it was some issue with my catalog or scanner I checked the Heidelberg online plates and see the same thing, though they are much lower resolution.

Another thing comes to mind. If these were super long scratches across a single large negative, shouldn't we expect to see scratch continuity across adjacent lot images? That may be present, but so far I don't immediately see a good example of it.

Many thanks for taking the time to look at this. It's really interesting.

Steve
Steve Moulding
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Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2022, 06:21:04 pm »
:
A related article that you would like is Oliver Hoover's article "Paper, Plaster, Sulfur, Foil: A Brief History of Numismatic Data Transmission", although it only has a few paragraphs on Collotype.
https://www.academia.edu/28753342/Paper_Plaster_Sulfur_Foil_A_Brief_History_of_Numismatic_Data_Transmission

Thanks for the link, Ed. Looks like a great read!

Steve
Steve Moulding
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Offline Altamura

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2022, 03:55:43 am »
I agree that these scratches must have been on the plaster casts.

At least for some of these coins you can see on more recent pictures that scratches seen in the auction catalog are not on the coins:
lot 195: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8592160
lot 94: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5571469
lot 62: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3420024
lot 200: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1824822  (some scratches are on the coin, some not :) )
lot 220: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1297096

And at lot 105 you can see a cast with a bad nose surgery  :): https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1002785

(You find the Naville IV catalog here: https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/kundig_naville1922_06_17/0003 )

Regards

Altamura

Offline dwarf

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2022, 04:56:14 am »
I produced a few thousand plaster casts in my former life as student and have no idea how these scratches came into being.
But I have no other solution
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Klaus

Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2022, 12:18:28 am »
:
At least for some of these coins you can see on more recent pictures that scratches seen in the auction catalog are not on the coins:
:

Wow! That's brilliant. Thanks so much for tracking all those down. In the Akragas Didrachm (attached) you have found a great example...real scratches plus 'process artefacts' (for want of a better term). 

I think it's possible, though perhaps unlikely, that they (Naville) experienced multiple problems along the way with that catalog. What look like wider furrows on a small number of lot images, such as 103 (shown earlier), may be collotype or plaster issues, and the very fine lines may be scratches on the negatives, per Ron's theory. For lines, cracks or furrows in plaster, I would rely on your, Curtis' and Klaus' experience and expertise to say what is and is not possible.

Now if there really were several disjoint issues at play, then it seems unlikely they would all get fixed at the same point in the catalog. We could then expect to see either furrows and/or fine scratches after Plate VIII. If all later plates are clean, I think it was likely a single issue. I need to go through the later lots to confirm.

Thanks again, everyone.

Steve
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Offline Steve Moulding

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Re: Collotype plate problem back in 1922
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2022, 10:58:58 am »
:
Another thing comes to mind. If these were super long scratches across a single large negative, shouldn't we expect to see scratch continuity across adjacent lot images? That may be present, but so far I don't immediately see a good example of it.
:

Well, I think that's it. Very likely long continuous scratches on the plate that can sometimes span more than one lot. Attached is a quick example from Plate VII. Only some scratches are highlighted for illustration, and apologies for my poor artwork...it's a simple image editor. Both wide (furrows) and fine scratches are present on the plate. It then doesn't appear to be a plaster issue. Also, later Plates IX-forward look clean.

The illustrated scratches do have some curvature. Perhaps negatives being put in / taken out of a dusty open-side flat folder multiple times in an arc-like movement? That's my best guess (but harder to see how that would cause the wider furrows).

Steve
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