Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos  (Read 4386 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« on: February 27, 2017, 09:50:17 am »
Dear fellow list-izens,

I need your help to identify the symbol that appears on the
attached two coins of Lesbos. They are both the so-called
1/20th staters, showing a boar's head facing right, with this
"unknown" symbol above.

I have highlighted the symbol in question, and also shown
the image in its correct orientation (as you may see).

Some of these have letters above, others have an eye or a
'lozenge' shape device above, but this has something that
I cannot recall encountering previously on a coin.

I have shown it to a number of colleagues, several of whom
are quite familiar with the coinage of this city, but no one has
yet been able to offer anything firm about what it may be.

Is this symbol familiar to you? What do you think it is?

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline okidoki

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 4272
    • https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=37270
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 10:21:08 am »
maybe a turtle seen in front
All the Best,
Eric
There are no strangers, only friends you do not know yet.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=37270

Offline shanxi

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 3032
    • My gallery
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 11:30:16 am »
A similar symbol (also together with a boar) appears on some coins from Pergamon, sometimes it is called slug. ( I don´t know why  ??? boars eating slugs  ??? )

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3052322

Offline Jasper

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 11:52:41 pm »
I would suggest that the symbol is a stylized eye.

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 12:55:25 am »
A representation of the ancient Theatre of Mytilene on Lesbos.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

kencooke

  • Guest
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 07:15:16 am »
I can't see anything.

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 07:44:34 pm »
A new day, fresh eyes and I think okidoki might be right - maybe a turtle seen in front.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2017, 09:22:56 am »
Thanks for all of the suggestions.

I do, however, continue to believe that this is an object, not
an animal, etc. I am happy to be corrected, but I am presently
inclined in that particular direction in lieu of additional evidence
or comparative material. I remain open to further suggestions.

All the best,

Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 03:54:19 pm »
It is extraordinary what one comes across in the course of unrelated searches.

I located this item, a single unique example sold twice, that at first seemed to
solve the mystery, but now seems only to add to it. It was first described as a
'leech fibula', and then this was updated and corrected to being a 'petasos'.

The coin is from the famous BCD Collection, sold several years ago:

Lot 1119. Thessaly, Larissa
c.450-430 Silver Obol (0.63g).
Obv: Head of Jason wearing petasos to right.
Rev. Λ - A / P, Petasos and kerykeion; all within incuse square.

To quote the cataloguer: "As for the reverse, the curious curved object found next
to the kerykeion was described as being a fibula of a typically Etruscan type, the
leech or sanguisuga , named after its leech-like shape.
Unfortunately this does not look like one of those fibulae since it has symmetrical
turned up ends, which sanguisuga fibulae do not have, and lacks any sign of a pin
catch. The present identification, as a petasos, is slightly more satisfactory, but is
also not entirely convincing: it is, perhaps, shown from the front, rather than from
the side as it usually appears.
"

However, and much as the cataloguer states, I too am not entirely convinced of
this updated description either. Perhaps the mystery continues.

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 04:31:57 pm »
Possibly some form of archer's finger release? The two curved ends to accommodate the first and second fingers while drawing the bow string the central bulge to accommodate the arrow and string release.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline stevex6

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1523
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 05:15:22 pm »
Oh, and I'm pretty sure that this is what Jason wearing a petasos should like, eh?

THESSALY, Pherai. Alexander. Tyrant
Æ Chalkous

369-359 BC
Diameter: 13 mm
Weight: 2.07 grams
Obverse: Head of Jason right, wearing petasos
Reverse: ΑΛΕΞΑΝ [Δ]ΡΟ[Υ], lower leg of horse right
Reference: Rogers 521; BCD Thessaly I 1314 var. (arrangement of ethnic); BCD Thessaly II 706; HGC 4, 583
Other: 4h …  VF, dark green-brown patina
From the BCD Collection

... man, I've always loved that sweet coin of mine

Oh and again => congrats on figuring-out that cool OP-coin

 +++




Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 06:18:46 pm »
I think ancient Greek archers used the thumb release--archers' thumb rings turn up all the time in the Mediterranean world.  The release shown here looks like a modern invention to me--is there any evidence of something like that in the ancient world?

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 01:23:34 am »
A third example of this obverse-type has now appeared at auction, going
for an extraordinary price! (no image)

I have again "stumbled" onto another coin with this same symbol, also on a
coin of Lesbos.

Here the symbol is placed above and between the facing heads of the boars.

Described therein as: darüber omegaförmiges Ornament über Halbkreis und
Punkt (which translates to: 'above omega-shaped ornament over semicircle
and point'
). Descriptive, but not specific to an object, etc.

If anyone has any further constructive ideas/opinions, I'd like to hear them.

Curiouser and curiouser!

Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2017, 11:08:44 am »
A bit more searching, and a little bit more stumbling, has led me
to yet another coin with this "unknown" symbol.

This time the coin is from Pergamon, c.440-350 BC, AE10 (Rare!).

There are a couple of obv. variants, each with the same symbol.
(dealer's images)

That's three disparate cities, each with the same symbol, so it
really must have some relevance beyond the island of Lesbos.

If anyone has any more thoughts, please add to the discussion.

Walter

- sorry shanxi, I forgot that you already noted this type above - oops!
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline glebe

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
    • Glebe Coins
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2017, 03:18:39 pm »
I think fibula is getting closer to the mark - or some similar piece of equipment.
Although whether it's Etruscan is another question - Lesbos and Pergamum are a long way from Etruria.


Ross G.

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2017, 03:50:46 pm »
A bit more searching, and a little bit more stumbling, has led me
to yet another coin with this "unknown" symbol.

This time the coin is from Pergamon, c.440-350 BC, AE10 (Rare!).

There are a couple of obv. variants, each with the same symbol.
(dealer's images)

That's three disparate cities, each with the same symbol, so it
really must have some relevance beyond the island of Lesbos.
 

In detail, I think this symbol is quite different to that previously posted which possesses a semicircular arcuate form with protruding horizontal bars, or inverse arcs, from each end.

The upper example from Pergamon (detail below) highlights the difference and has all the appearance of a squid. The tentacles and body are very nicely detailed and the protruding end bars that define the form you are seeking to identify are completely absent.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2017, 08:58:39 pm »
In detail, I think this symbol is quite different to that previously posted ...

I could not disagree more. They are all the same object, each depiction being
executed according to the respective skill of each artist.

Quote
The upper example from Pergamon (detail below) highlights the difference and has all the appearance of a squid. The tentacles and body are very nicely detailed and the protruding end bars that define the form you are seeking to identify are completely absent.

I have seen a lot of squid, but nothing as awkwardly presented as you claim.
There are examples of squid depicted on coins, but they don't look like this.

There are no "tentacles", the lines you see are only weaker on the other side
due to lack of metal flow. One cannot focus solely on one single insignificant
feature to the exclusion of the whole rest of the image, nor the others in the
greater group. Those "end-bars" as you call them are there, simply allowing
for lighting angles, unless you choose not to see them. Additional examples
of these coins will undoubtedly add to, and aid this conclusion.

If we follow your lead, then the object between the boar's heads above is a
mouse, with the tail cut off, and a stubby nose, and tensed up because it is
cold, and sitting on ball-bearing. On the other hand - no!

The next thing I expect will be someone calling this a false moustache!

Convince me with evidence, actual evidence. All the best,

Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2017, 05:20:15 am »
Try a yoke. You may be pleasantly surprised.  ;D
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2017, 05:08:55 pm »
Try a yoke. You may be pleasantly surprised.  ;D

Thanks n.igma,

An excellent suggestion!

The general shape of the yoke does seem to concord with the symbol, but I
am still cautious as the image below (for example) shows a modern version,
and one that is not necessarily the same as that used 2500 years ago.
Then there is the problem of scale, and the lack of association with what one
would imagine should be associated, ie: bulls or other working/farm animals.

It is, however, the best possibility so far. I will keep looking!
(and I encourage other to do the same)

All the best,

Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2017, 10:06:19 pm »
...Then there is the problem of scale, and the lack of association with what one
would imagine should be associated, ie: bulls or other working/farm animals.

A suggestion here: The conventional explanation is that these sort of symbols are mint control marks applicable to the mint's internal control process (Callataÿ, F. de. 2012. Control marks on Hellenistic royal coinages: use, and evolution toward simplification?  Revue Belge de Numismatique et de Sigillographie CLVIII: 39-62   https://www.academia.edu/2350185/Control_marks_on_Hellenistic_royal_coinages_use_and_evolution_towards_simplification_Revue_belge_de_Numismatique_158_2012_p._39-62). In this case, there need be no association, nor direct scaling, between the control mark and the primary iconography of the coin. For example the  control mark, if a yoke, may simply be the mark of a magistrate who was a large landholder/farmer.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Uncertain Symbol on a Billon Coin of Lesbos
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2021, 10:33:23 am »
Although it has been a few years since this was initially posted, I thought I'd reopen this
question again in case there are some new ideas, or new eyes to consider the problem.

As may be seen, the symbol may be found in Pergamon and Larissa as well as Lesbos.

Anyone have any new or additional ideas about the symbol in the original post (above)?

TIA. All the best,

- Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity