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Author Topic: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah  (Read 1047 times)

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Offline Stkp

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Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« on: February 08, 2020, 01:12:46 pm »
The first line on this prutah is barely visible but the second through fifth letters of the second line are clear. They appear to be an exact match for Hendin 1139/464; Meshorer TJC E (John Hyrcanus I) -- including the style of the letter He. However, the remaining lines don’t appear to correspond to that type/group. Any thoughts concerning this attribution would be appreciated. Stkp

Offline Jochen

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2020, 02:30:28 pm »
Dear Stkp!

Let me give it a try.

I see 4, possibly 5 lines. The letters in square brackets are missed or unsure:
 
(1) NWH[Y]
(2) GHNH[K]
(3) RB(Ch)WLWD
(4) WHY
(5) M[D]

I think it is Yehonatan (Alexander Jannaeus). In any case the first line is too short for Yehochanan (Hyrcanus I) and I don't see a (Ch) in the first line.

Best regards

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2020, 02:57:42 pm »
For those who don't know it is there - Reading Judean Coins in NumisWiki.
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Offline Jochen

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2020, 06:05:34 pm »
Thank you. Very useful.

Jochen

Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2020, 02:03:59 pm »
The NumisWiki entry identified by Joe is fantastic. I relied heavily on it when attributing and preparing my gallery attributions of the following two coins that I recently posted to my gallery:

John Hyrcanus I, Hendin 456/ 1133; Meshorer TJC Group G
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-159852
and
Alexander Jannaeus, Hendin 475/1146; Meshorer TJC Group R
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-159976

I also relied on Hendin 4th edition and Meshorer TJC. The paleo-Hebrew letters in the Wiki can be cut and pasted into a Word document, which is very helpful.

I have purchased the few prutot that I own unattributed. My wife is amazed at the amount of time I spend studying these (and other) coins and preparing my gallery attributions. But that is much of the fun of collecting.

Thank you, Jochen, for taking a crack at my coin. Here is my thinking:

Yehohanan (John Hyrcanus I) is six letters: YHW(HH)NN
Yehonatan (Alexander Jannaeus) is also six letters: YHWNTN
The first three letters are identical.

FIRST ROW: The first row on the coin appears to contain three letters. Whether it reads Yehohanan or Yehonatan, those three letters should be the same, and should read YHW. I can make out the first letter on the right. It is a Y. Only the bottom portions of the other two letters are visible. I can’t see enough to confirm that they are HW, but the portions that are visible don’t exclude that possibility. I note that the example of Hendin 1139/464; Meshorer TJC Group E in the Wiki has a first line consisting of these three letters. Many of the legend variations for this group that are listed in TJC also have a first lines containing these three letters.

SECOND ROW: My tentative attribution is essentially based on the second row. It appears to contain five letters, with the one on the right obscure. The visible four letters appear to be NNHK. If my interpretation of the first row and the balance of the second row is correct, the missing first letter in the second row is the (HH)=Ch. The Wiki states: “If you see two nun's in a row, (NN), the king named is Yehohanan (John Hyrcanus I).” I note that the example of Hendin 1139/464; Meshorer TJC Group E in the Wiki has a second line consisting of these five letters. Many of the legend variations for this group that are listed in TJC also have a second lines containing of these five letters. Significantly the shape of the letter He (H) is one of the defining characteristics of TJC Group E, and the He in the second row is a clear match.

So far, I interpret the legend as:

1.   YWH (the beginning of either Yehohanan or Yehonatan)
2.   [(HH)]NN (completing Yehohanan) H (the) K (first letter in priest)

THIRD ROW: The third row appears to contain seven letters. I have not yet worked my way through them yet.

FOURTH ROW: The fourth row appears to contain five or six letters. I have not yet worked my way through them yet.

FIFTH ROW: I see just three letters in the fifth row. They appear to be MDY (the last three letters in YHDYM (Jews), with the Y and the D transposed.

This is still a work in progress. Your thoughts -- anybody else’s -- would be appreciated.

Stkp

Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2020, 07:36:16 pm »
I have completed my attribution and write-up of the coin. I still believe that it is a Hendin 1139/464; Meshorer TJC E (John Hyrcanus I). The details of the legend differ somewhat from what I thought. The coin is now in my gallery:
Gallery Link
Stkp

Offline Chaim S

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2020, 06:02:17 pm »
Hi,

The script on this coin is of the type used on Hendin 1143 (Yehudah) and 1144 (Yehonatan). The obverse as well (cornucopia) is of type 1143/1144. The distribution of the letters is however rare. Line 1 is unclear. Line 2 ends with the letters NHG. Line 3 reads (D)WLWHBR. It is most likely a coin of Yehudah (1143), but I have never seen this die. Can you take a clearer picture? Thanks

Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2020, 06:39:53 pm »
Chaim, please take a good look at the letter He. It does not appear to be a match for Hendin 1143 or 1144 and seems to match Hendin 1139. I'll rescan it from a different angle and repost so that you can get a better look. Stkp

Offline Aarmale

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2020, 09:44:39 pm »
I suspect that this is a coin of Jannaeus. First, the style of cornucopia, is (almost?) exclusive to coins of Jannaeus (TJC Q).

I additionally believe the legend to be something like:
[YHWN]
[T]N KH[N] G
[D?]WL WHB[R?]
YH[D?]
M

(This reading could possibly be enhanced by sharper pictures.)

The appendage on the letter after the nun on the second line suggests to me that it is a kaf (for Kohen), which would imply the previous letter is the final part of Yehonatan (Yehochanan did not strike coins of this style, and we would anyways expect to see a Chet on the top left).

Also note that the arrangement of the letters and and orthographies conform with those commonly appearing on TJC Q (YHWN on line 1, "gadol" with a waw, "kohe[n]" without a "nun").
Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי

Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2020, 10:02:20 pm »
Thank you, Aarmale. It looks like the weight of opinion favors Jannaeus. I attach 2 additional scans of the obverse of the coin. Stkp

Offline Chaim S

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2020, 01:55:37 pm »
Yep! What Aarmale wrote makes sense. It is a strange arrangement of lettering, but after reexamining what I thought was an N in line 2, it is probably a K.  So it seems that it's more likely to be Yehonatan (Hendin 1144/ Meshorer Group Q) than Yehudah (Hendin 1143/Meshorer Group U).

Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2020, 02:13:24 pm »
I thank you both (and Jochen). I still am fixated by the letter He and the attribution to Hendin 1139, but I defer to those with more knowledge than mine. I will take a good look at it and re-evaluate. Stkp

Offline Chaim S

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2020, 02:57:26 pm »
Yes, Stkp, that H in the second line is not consistent with other Yehonatan Type Q coins. That H which looks like a reverse E was used by Yehudah and Yehohanan, but not Yehonatan. That's what makes this a strange die. If you can take a close up photo (not a scan from a flat scanner), I might be able to decipher the first line and resolve the issue. Thanks

Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2020, 06:43:51 pm »
Chaim, Here is a photo. Let me know whether this helps. Stkp

Offline Chaim S

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2020, 04:31:16 am »
Good photo! Thanks. So this confirms Aarmale's opinion. The first line seems to read: (Y)HWN which means it can only possibly be of Jannaeus. The full inscription seems to read thus:
[Y]HWN
[T]N KH G
DWL WHBR
HYHY
M
The engraver left out a few letters (not unusual), BUT used the older version of 'He' on the second line (very unusual). It may have been minted early in Janneaus' reign, near the change of regime with Aristobulus I in the year 103 BCE, since that type of 'He' is seen a lot on Yehudah coins, but this is the FIRST time I've ever seen it on a Yehonatan coin!

Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2020, 10:34:22 am »
Chaim, I have taken a good look and agree with your intrepetation, line-by-line, of the letters. I understand where I went wrong. Two comments: (1) the first appearance of the letter He in the fourth line is the old style (as also appears in the second line); and (2) the letter R in the fourth line has an open top, which is similar to the style of the letter on Hendin 1442 (Judah Aristobulus I).

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2020, 01:27:22 pm »
Even with the NumisWiki guide. These coins are often challenging.
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Offline Stkp

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Re: Confirmation of Attribution of a Judaean Prutah
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2020, 10:53:14 pm »
Between the fact that some letters are invariably totally obscured at the margins, and many letters have a similar look -- especially when partially obscured -- it is easy to misread the legends. Because of the old style letter He in the second line, I expected this coin to be a John Hyrcanus and misread the ambiguous letters accordingly.

I have reposted the coin to my gallery at https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-161917, and am removing the prior image from the gallery. Any comments or corrections concerning the attribution, description or analysis of the coin are welcomed. The image, which is photographed rather than scanned, is still not a work of art but is clearer than the original image.

I attach the legend in paleo-Hebrew.

Again, I thank Chaim S., Aarmale and Jochen for their assistance. It is noted in my gallery, and this discussion is referenced as well.

Stkp

 

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