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Author Topic: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?  (Read 1725 times)

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Offline Jay GT4

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Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« on: February 01, 2019, 02:42:45 pm »
Hey guys.  Here is a coin from my collection.  I believe the coin is authentic.  In hand it just feels right and there appears to be traces of find patina and deposits.  It was purchased from a very reputable and knowledgeable dealer.  The picture is darker than it appears in hand and I'll work on taking better pictures later today.  However a die match for the reverse was pointed out to me on another message board.  Take a look:

My coin is 16.74g

Any thoughts?


Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2019, 02:44:39 pm »
Also from the fake reports:

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2019, 03:28:22 pm »
The style of the reverse is far from normal.  I fear it is indeed a fake.


Offline n.igma

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2019, 05:38:11 pm »
Certainly looks like same reverse with modifications applied on each cast - easily done using the lost wax casting technique.

Obverse is different to the fake reports coin, but poses similar issues.

The red line on your image below outlines what appears to be an edge lifted from a host coin in the molding process.

Also no evidence of any break in the crest at 8- 9h that typifies authentic examples.

Strongly suggests a cast fake.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2019, 06:43:38 pm »
Thanks for your observations guys.

Here is an apparent authentic,  although eastern imitation example brought to my attention with a stylistically similar reverse

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1276052


Offline djmacdo

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 07:47:31 am »
Could be!

Offline shanxi

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2019, 08:06:53 am »
Another reverse die match from the fake reports:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-15940

There is one interesting difference. The examples from the Fake reports show a strong connection between the A, Θ an the rim. Your coin not.

And none of the examples shows the same obverse as your coin.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2019, 02:31:57 pm »
This is what is troubling...

Offline n.igma

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2019, 07:55:31 pm »
One reverse die that shows no sign of advancing of die wear, or die breaks, while paired to three obverse dies.  

Unusual at the least, highly suspicious at the worst.

I've been associated with a few Greek tetradrachm die studies and have seen nothing comparable in authentic issues.

There is one interesting difference. The examples from the Fake reports show a strong connection between the A, Θ an the rim. Your coin not.

Certainly looks like same reverse with modifications applied on each cast - easily done using the lost wax casting technique.

To which I would add the accentuated striations on the incuse walls of the other two coins.

Also I have a question as to the "patina" on your coins. It appears to be a coating of something, rather than result of regular silver toning. The reverse edge 9-10h of the brownish grey coating appears to be flaking away giving rise to an uneven jagged edge on the coating. The same before the front leg of the owl. What is the nature of the substance?
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 12:03:55 am »
Thanks n.igma.  To me it looks like find patina.  Tomorrow morning I will upload new pictures.   I just haven't had time this weekend.  I'll zoom in on the areas of interest.

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2019, 09:20:23 am »
Here are some images I took to show the patina and some of the devices


Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 11:44:29 am »
Another eastern imitation:


Offline shanxi

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 11:57:49 am »
Or ist it just called "eastern imitation"?

It is a obverse and reverse die match with the Fake from the notorious fake seller I listed above, including the  A and Θ flow lines.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-15940


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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2019, 12:03:01 pm »
The scratches in the field on the fake reports coin appear to be raised (transferred from a mold) while on the "Eastern imitation" they appear to be recessed (real scratches) suggesting it is the host?  At least that's what it looks like to me...

Offline shanxi

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2019, 12:06:58 pm »
Or someone has tried to scrape the raised structures off.  The strongest line is still visible

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Athenian Owl from my Collection reverse match?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2019, 12:10:27 pm »
Which makes more sense...

 

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