Phoenix on Pyre

[Steve Minnoch]

Maybe pyre alludes to Rome consecratio???  Don't forget the one with a globe.

I would be surprised if it has direct pagan connotations, given a fact like the absence of conseration coinage for Constantine at any mints under Constans?  

And I second "don't forget the globe".  The globe type is found throughout the empire, whereas the mountain/rocks/pyre type only at Constans' mints (RIC p 36).

Steve

[Numerianus]

Very interesting discussion!  How one can claim that it is the Phoenix and not other bird?
Is it written somewhere? Or it is just a (plausible) guess?

[Jochen]

Hi Numerianus!

You are laying the axe at the fundaments of this discussion! But no fear! It is the sun behind the bird what makes him the Phoenix! There is no other bird with this myth.

Regards,
Jochen

[Massanutten]

I think the term is radiate nimbate (i.e. a halo).  It was sometimes used on representations of Sol instead of a radiate crown.
Best regards, Bob

[Numerianus]

Again, there are different interpretations possible.  
In contrast to  the other examples above where the radiate nimbate or sun is the natural symbol,  for the last one I would guess that the bird wears a wreath.  

The legend, apparently, is related with a real species of birds with a "nimbated " head.  The "pyre" may be just the top of a palm tree, the preferable watching position...  Finally, the choice of Phoenix for the coin reverse may, indeed, be an allusion  that the emperor was
still considered as a friend of the invincible sun.  

[Heliodromus]

Again, there are different interpretations possible.  
In contrast to  the other examples above where the radiate nimbate or sun is the natural symbol,  for the last one I would guess that the bird wears a wreath.  

On this example, or the phoenix on "mound" type from Siscia in general, the slanted rays on the nimbus may look a bit odd, but on the same type from Trier they're perpendicular to the nimbus as more usual, and on the phoenix-on-globe types there can be no confusion that the phoenix is radiate!

[Steve Minnoch]

Finally, the choice of Phoenix for the coin reverse may, indeed, be an allusion  that the emperor was still considered as a friend of the invincible sun.  

Although it is certainly possible that it may have been interpreted as such by many who saw it, if it has a religious significance here then it is far more likely to be a Christian one.  Christian writing relates the phoenix story to the resurrection as early as the 1st century.

Steve

[Heliodromus]

I assume the significance of the phoenix with it's symbolism of rebirth, is directly related to the "FEL TEMP REPARATIO" (the good times are here again) legend... The type is simply celebrating (or perhaps the emperors are assuming credit for) the return of better times to Rome, similar perhaps to Constantine having celebrated the "BEATA TRANQUILITAS"... achieved thru war (MARTI PACIFERO!).

[Massanutten]

Yes,  I think BenB has it right.  The use of the radiate (rising of the sun) symbology together with the legend strongly suggests the celebration of a new age!
Regards, Bob

[Steve Minnoch]

That is exactly what it is (see the extract from RIC earlier in this thread), the legend and the phoenix are absolutely linked through the theme of rebirth and rejuvenation.

The issue that goes beyond that, which a few people have brought up, is whether the type has pagan/christian allusions as well.  

Steve

[Massanutten]

  My feel is that the Christian church was becoming as Romanized as the Romans were becoming Christianianized and would have had no trouble associating  a theme for rebirth and a new age.

[Heliodromus]

Well, I know Joe, sensibly, has rules on the discussion of religion, but ...

My own feeling is that Christianity died when Constantine became involved.. Roman Catholicism resulted (and gave rise to modern "Christian" religions), and Christianity (Jesus/John/Thomas's own brand of Gnostic Judaism) died.

Ben

[Massanutten]

Yes, and I don't think that you can disconnect it from the coins that the Empire chose to produce.  This is not a question of religion, but a question of fact.  The unquestionable inclusion of christaian symbolism is beyond question. I cite the chi rho, the divine hand, the cross, etc. as evidance. No insult to other beliefs is intended.  It is just what was happenining to Roman coins at the time.  Other coins had their own motiffs.

[Numerianus]

By the way, there are many versions of the myth about the bird (whose life expectancy can be 1460 or even 12954 years).
I have  other encyclopedia as Jochen with more detailed information on Phoenix.
It sends the reader  also to Herodotus (5th cent. B.C.).   Read  the excerpt from his Book II:

"They have also another sacred bird called the phoenix which I myself have never seen, except in pictures. Indeed it is a great rarity, even in Egypt, only coming there (according to the accounts of the people of Heliopolis) once in five hundred years, when the old phoenix dies. Its size and appearance, if it is like the pictures, are as follow:- The plumage is partly red, partly golden, while the general make and size are almost exactly that of the eagle. They tell a story of what this bird does, which does not seem to me to be credible: that he comes all the way from Arabia, and brings the parent bird, all plastered over with myrrh, to the temple of the Sun, and there buries the body. In order to bring him, they say, he first forms a ball of myrrh as big as he finds that he can carry; then he hollows out the ball, and puts his parent inside, after which he covers over the opening with fresh myrrh, and the ball is then of exactly the same weight as at first; so he brings it to Egypt, plastered over as I have said, and deposits it in the temple of the Sun. Such is the story they tell of the doings of this bird."
 

[Bluefish]

Ok, that makes two accounts, and obviously it is a part of the legend, where the parent bird is brought to the temple of the sun in Egypt.

Do you think therefore that the pile or pyre the phoenix stands on is also symbolic of the pyramids? I realize the pyramids were designed as crypts and monuments rather than temples, but the shape of the pile is reminiscent of them. (I also don't know how far along the pyramids constructions were at this point in the historical timeline, or if they would have any impact on Rome)

[Numerianus]

At least, the Herodotus version sheds the light on "Phoenix-on-globe" (which is held by the emperor on some reverses).

[Heliodromus]

At least, the Herodotus version sheds the light on "Phoenix-on-globe" (which is held by the emperor on some reverses).

Actually the globe is the celestial globe representing the universe, which the Romans believed rotated around the world. The crossed lines on the globe are most likely the "ecliptic" line along which the sun and planets (gods to the Romans) appeared to travel, and the "celestial equator" which marks the center of the rotating celestial globe (as would have been determined by the fixed pole stars).

I've recently argued in another thread that one of these lines might represent the milky way which would have been a visible feature of the night sky, but perhaps the celestial equator, while an imaginary rather than visible feature, is indeed more likely - it's a baseline of the celestial globe, and has significance in that the times of year that the sun crosses it (as shown by the ecliptic crossings) would mark the spring and autumnal equinoxes where day and night are of equal length. On some versions of the celestial globe, which I've only seen on Constantine's BEATA TRANQILITAS type,  there is a third "great circle" marked on the globe which could perhaps be the milky way.

This seems to indicate that the FEL TEMP REPARATIO legend isn't just referring to Rome, but perhaps to the entire universe... and perhaps refers to belief in the cycle of the golden age.

It's also the same celestial globe that is held by the emperor on some bust types, or by Sol and Jupiter on some reverse types... on clear examples you can see the same crossed lines and dots representing the stars.

Here's a phoenix-on-globe type of mine (a recent Forvm purchase) that shows the celestial globe very clearly.

Ben

[Jochen]

I haver never seen such a globe with so many and sharp details! Congratulations!

BTW On your globe the crossing of the two lines is not rectangular! Is this the angle of c. 23° which the ecliptic plane is inclined related to the celestial equator?

Jochen

[Heliodromus]

I haver never seen such a globe with so many and sharp details! Congratulations!

BTW On your globe the crossing of the two lines is not rectangular! Is this the angle of c. 23° which the ecliptic plane is inclined related to the celestial equator?

Thanks, Jochen!

With such a detailed globe, this certainly might have been an attempt to correctly show the angle, but in general the crossed lines (including on other specimens similar to mine) are shown crossing at closer to 90°, so it's really a symbolic rather than accurate depiction. I've even seen examples where there are 4 crescent moons (mine has one) shown!

On some examples, such as another of mine, below, from Cyzicus, the crossing lines are shown doubled, which I'm guessing is purely decorative, unless intended to show a wide band rather than a line. I have a theory that this double cross may be related to that on the VIRT EXERC "Sol on X" type.

Ben

[Numerianus]

With the last examples (both extraordinary interesting) hopes to build a "general theory of Phoenix" seem to be problematic!  

[Tiathena]

 
    Sure is an interesting thread…

  Just to toss in another thought for whatever it’s worth.

  Maybe to the ancient Romans the material here at question was of no real consequence at all, and what was, is the pyramidal shape.
  Perhaps there was always the underlying assumption that the ‘materials’ of it were those described by Ovid – i.e. “..cinnamon and spikenard, and myrrh.”  (?)
  Or that it was the temple (of Amon-Re) of Heliopolis as destination (as opposed to point of departure).
  That doesn’t seem too far-fetched to me, considering it’s proximity to Giza (the Great Pyramids); and is there any contemporary description of what the temple looked like at its height, around 1,300 BC?  I don’t know of any, and as best I recall now, I don’t think there are any.
  Perhaps it was also pyramidal?
 

  If so, then even more-particularly the thought suggested by Vic9128 (Reply #12, above) would seem very-much plausible & applicable (to me).
  Namely, that the ‘type’-differences and variations are merely products of practical concerns of the respective celators.

  Just more food for thought …

  ~  Tia
 
 

[slokind]

Having been harried for days by the phrase, "I rise in flame, cried the Phoenix" arising from deep memories of a youth spent in uncritical reading, so that it might even be someone like D. H. Lawrence (no relation), I resorted to Bartlett, where all I found about rising ones was Shakespeare, Henry V, v, 40:
Nor shall this peace sleep with her; but as when / The bird of wonder dies, the maiden phoenix, / Her ashes new-create another heir / As great, in admiration as herself.

Anyhow, I always thought the phoenix burned, finally, but from its ashes arose a new one.  But I still don't know what it is I'm remembering, or mis-remembering, which, from the first little phoenix ftr I got, I've associated with the coin.
Pat lawrence

[Robert_Brenchley]

The version I know is that the phoenix rises from the funeral pyre of its parent, but I don't know the source. It could be medieval.

[Massanutten]

In Webster's Unabridged,
  "A mythical bird of great beauty, the only one of it's kind, fabled to live 500 or 600 years in the Arabian wilderness, to burn itself on a funeral pile, and to rise from its ashes in the freshness of youth and live through another cycle of years: often an emblem of immortality".

   I think this is the common understanding of the myth  (at least it matches my earliest memory of the story).
Regards, Bob

[slokind]

Yet the four lines of Shakespeare from Henry V  that a cited a few replies above show that he knew the same version (from its parent) as Mr. Brenchley.  I conclude tentatively that as with the texts of certain books there were varying oral and textual traditions about this Arabian bird with an otherwise-pointing name.  Pat L.