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Author Topic: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki  (Read 46882 times)

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Offline Orthodoxcoins

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Class A Follis Reference
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2007, 04:05:48 am »
I can't find this one in your table:
http://www.orthodoxcoins.com
Catalogue of the Late Byzantine Coins

Offline Orthodoxcoins

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« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2007, 04:18:27 am »
.....and a nice example of #3
http://www.orthodoxcoins.com
Catalogue of the Late Byzantine Coins

yafet_rasnal

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« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2007, 04:22:06 am »
Quote from: Orthodoxcoins on January 10, 2007, 04:05:48 am
I can't find this one in your table:

Isn't it #1 ?

Offline Orthodoxcoins

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« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2007, 05:25:44 am »
Isn't it #1 ?
Quote

Yes, it's very similar, but there one dot more above, and down below the woll-line is break off with two dots more.

 :) I dont want to be a subsubvariants discoverer!  Pre-Alexius coins are not my area.
But  you have my promise - I'll  post here and in my site more then 15 new Byzantine types from the 13 - 14 century!
http://www.orthodoxcoins.com
Catalogue of the Late Byzantine Coins

Offline Orthodoxcoins

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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2007, 01:20:57 pm »
Isn't it #1 ?
Quote

This is # 1
http://www.orthodoxcoins.com
Catalogue of the Late Byzantine Coins

Offline byzantiumcoins

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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2007, 03:44:04 pm »
@ orthodoxcoin:

nice subvariant of var 1 -
my specimen also has the normal 3 pellets only:

Byzantiumcoins


yafet_rasnal

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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2007, 04:02:07 am »
Today i was checking the Sear and i found something strange: on some good preserved coins the legend of the reverse there is IhSUS XRISTUS BASILEU' BASILE' with strokes for missing letter. But on Sear i didn't find any trace of these strokes. Strange

Offline Pep

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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2007, 05:01:47 pm »
Greetings Everyone,

I am happy to announce that I have drastically restructured the table and have hopefully created the most up-to-date presentation of this subject available.  Since I believe this project now deserves its own page, I moved it here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous%20Byzantine%20Class%20A%20Folles

I also updated the address in my first post on this thread so new readers won't click "Ornamentation" and feel lost.  I left a link on that old page to direct people to this project though.  "Ornamentation" can still be a useful page with other coins and their Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments, such as the "VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC PERP" series.  I already drew them and they are among the reply symbols.  Perhaps someday they can be organized in that Wiki page.

In studying the Grierson table, I decided to combine it with the Bellinger table and even research the issues myself.  While Grierson was meant to be an update and replacement for Bellinger, it too is not the complete and final authority on the subject.  Nor was it intended to be.  While Grierson does correct and update Bellinger in several entries, Bellinger was actually correct over Grierson on one issue so far.  Also, the Grierson table had a few errors itself which I corrected.  Other Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments also differed in just an artistic sense in comparison to the actual coins and I redrew them to conform more with the real thing.

I also moved the variants that we have discovered into this updated table to better show the relationships between them and similar variants.  I placed an "F" in front of their numbers to designate them as discoveries of this FORVM effort.  This way, people hopefully won't look for these new variants in the original tables and find themselves confused.  I continue the existing tradition of the Grierson table to label them as "a", "b", "c" and so on.  If a coin is a variant of one of those letters, then a number is added after said letter (e.g. "a2", "a3", "a4").  As a result, the following numbers have changed:

— "1F" is actually "41" and is thus no longer a new variant
— "2F" becomes "F24c"
— "3F" becomes "F33b"

The coin that Orthodoxcoins shares above has been named "F1b".  Byzantiumcoins also shared photos of several new variants with me and they have been named and added to the table.

Cmcdon0923's coin, while not a new variant, does identify the previously unknown book Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament of "24a".  For some strange reason, the NumisWiki persists in dropping the "cd" from his name so I used his name "Craig" in the credits.

As for the organization of this effort, here are the features in order of appearance:

— An illustrative example of how a Class A Follis is arranged.

— The table for official issues.  It is color-coded to show the evolution of the research conducted by Bellinger, Grierson and ourselves.  Bellinger entries that were obviously corrected by Grierson have been replaced by the latter on the table.  Conflicting entries that are still in doubt are both listed.  Hopefully we can resolve them shortly in subsequent discussions.  Grierson skips several numbers completely that are probably examples Bellinger erroneously listed as separate from nearby entries.  However, they are noted as such and will be left in place so all numbers are accounted for.

— Another table for contemporary imitations.  Since these were not official issues and will not likely fit well among them in the main table, they need to have their own table.  When top and bottom reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments differ in either table, the entry space is enlarged and both are shown.

— The legend for the color-coding used in the tables.

— A quote from Metcalf speculating on the existence of at least one provincial mint for these issues beyond just the mint of Constantinople striking them.

— Notes on Integrating the Bellinger and Grierson Tables

— Notes for Updates, Corrections and Variants Not Listed in the Original Tables

— Outstanding Issues (that need to be resolved)

— Sources for the Original Tables (Bibliography)

As the Grierson table was not meant to be the final say for this topic, neither is the table that I created.  It is intended to be an ongoing project as corrections may have to be made and it is definitely open-ended concerning future discoveries of new variants and unknown Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments to known variants.  If you have any updates for it, please make a post to this thread or send me a Personal Message.  I hope to start addressing the "Outstanding Issues" in the very near future in this thread but I invite you to beat me to it in discussing them ;)

Thank You and Enjoy,

Kevin  :)

Offline Scotvs Capitis

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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2007, 05:58:59 pm »
Wow, that is a stunning resource, thank you VERY much!!!

Looking at it, I see my own Class A Folles' target='_blank'>class A2 has a variety not listed, closest to type 20

I have a single pellet in both reverse fields, two dots in the numbus and two dots on the book. Am I reading mine wrong?

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Offline Pep

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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2007, 07:59:18 am »
Thank you for the kind words Scott!

Your coin is indeed a new discovery.  I agree that it is closest to #20 so it has therefore been christened "F20a".  Thank you for posting it!

Kevin  :)

Offline Pep

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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2007, 02:55:31 pm »
OK, here is the first outstanding issue:

Which is the proper reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament for #10?:

Bellinger

Grierson

I'm thinking the lengths of the vertical lines aren't a critical detail and the difference between the two are just from the artistic interpretations of the authors.  I would go with the Grierson Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament and drop the question mark if this is the case.

The top Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament on a coin Byzantiumcoins showed me has lines of equal length while the bottom Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament looks a little more sloppy.  Does anyone have or know of other coins with this Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament?

Thanks,

Kevin  :)

Offline Pep

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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2007, 01:46:01 pm »
Here are the other outstanding issues, just in case they can be addressed first ;):

11:  Does Grierson correct Bellinger? - I suspect so as I've seen several of these reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments:  but none of these (for sure): 

29:  Is the Bellinger reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament actually correct versus Grierson? - Latter () just seems to be an incomplete version (perhaps from a badly-struck coin) of the former ().

30:  May be just an artistic interpretation but which reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament is more accurate? - or ?

31 and 33a:  Is 33a the same as 31?  See discussion further up on this thread.

42:  Which "A" on the reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament is the proper design? - or ?

Thanks,

Kevin  :)

Offline Pep

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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2007, 01:55:48 pm »
I found a new variety online:



Reverse:    
Nimbus:    
Book:   

It has been named "F17b".  Full details are in the NumisWiki article.

Kevin  :)

Offline byzantiumcoins

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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2007, 05:14:28 pm »
Kevin,

I have seen this for the first time some months ago but I consider it as a varity of A2.21 -
It has 2 pellets on the book.
Byzantiumcoins

Offline Pep

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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2007, 05:34:40 pm »
Quote from: Valerius on September 23, 2007, 02:02:16 pm
I found a new variety online:


the design at the top on the reverse looks more like  >  ! < (with a straight line, rather than an exclamation point!) , rather than  > K

It would make more sense for the symmetry also.

Hello Valerius,

The "K" on the top reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament is just poorly engraved.  Oftentimes, the Byzantines weren't too particular about getting things perfect and/or symmetrical on their coins.

Kevin,

I have seen this for the first time some months ago but I consider it as a varity of A2.21 -
It has 2 pellets on the book.
Byzantiumcoins


Hello Wolfgang,

"F17a" has two pellets on the book too, or at least it seems so in the picture you gave me (which you labeled "S-1813-17-01var-K").  I attached a 2x zoom of the book below.  I believe the bottom of the top pellet is visible.  Did I see it wrong?  If so, then would a one-pellet "F17a" remain so while "F17b" should be "F21a"?

Kevin  :)

Offline byzantiumcoins

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« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 08:32:41 am »
Hello Kevin,

sorry for the late reply.

Of course I didn«t find this thread, usually I am only reading in the Byzantine Group !!

In fact my 17var has two pellets on the book, so it is absolutely justified to question my attribution.
I had placed it close to no. 17 because it shows a simple letter as the entire group 15 - 19 does.

I have given your coin to 21 because I didn«t consider the Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments on it as a letter k,
but still more or less as a star which is only torn apart.
In fact, naming the 2 pellets I have used the wrong argument to place it there.

Kind regards
Wolfgang

Offline byzantiumcoins

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« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2007, 08:42:29 am »
Again, the 2 coins for comparison plus a regular no. 21

Offline Pep

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« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2007, 10:19:54 am »
I have given your coin to 21 because I didn't consider the Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments on it as a letter k,
but still more or less as a star which is only torn apart.

OK, that clarifies it for me :)  I can see the star scenario now.  I'll update the chart and rename it F21a.

Kevin  :)

Offline Katharosteriphos

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« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2007, 05:50:30 pm »
Hi @ all!

I hope I'm asking this (basic) question in the right place....:
What is the difference between A2 and A3 Folles? I have read that it is the size, but what size exactly is that?  ???
Thank you,

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Offline byzantiumcoins

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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2007, 02:33:30 am »
There is no difference, at least none that makes any sense.
Byzntiumcoins

Offline Katharosteriphos

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« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2007, 09:33:54 am »
Hi byzantiumcoins,

Yeah, that's what I thought as well.
But a few days ago when I was looking through the anonymous folles in the Forum catalog (prior sales) I found this note next to coin no.13437 (which is a anonymous follis Class A Folles' target='_blank'>class A2):

Some authorities do not distinguish between the A2 and A3 classes of Anonymous folles. They share the same design but the A3 coins are smaller. Perhaps they do not need to be classed separately but clearly the weight of the type was reduced at some point. This coin is closer to the weight of an A3 but the larger flan is closer to a typical A2.

The coins weight and size: 11.752g, 32.8mm

What do you think about that?   ???
best regards,

-Kat

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Offline byzantiumcoins

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« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2007, 09:55:49 am »
Hi Kat,
in fact there are more than 2 groups of Anonymous Folles Class A Folles' target='_blank'>Class A2 which can be distinguished by different styles.
This is why I do not see any sense in splitting them up in 2 ( weight- ) groups -
I would either consider them as one group that was struck for quite a long period of time ( admitting that there may have been
metrological changes )
or rather divide them in about 7 groups, coming from different mints !!, as Metcalf has done in his important article in the Numismatic Chronicle 1970
byzantiumcoins

Offline Katharosteriphos

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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2007, 07:30:06 am »
Hi Byzantiumcoins,

Thank you for your answer.
Do you maybe know an online source for Metcalf's article?
The idea of splitting them um in 7 groups sounds good to me.

best regards from Vienna,
-Kat
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Offline byzantiumcoins

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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2007, 09:42:03 am »
Hi Byzantiumcoins,
do you maybe know an online source for Metcalf's article?
best regards from Vienna,
-Kat

Unfortunately no.
The article is in the 1970 Numismatic Chronicle and I do not think the Royal Numismatic Society
did publish anything in the net.
Kind regards
Byzantiumcoins


Offline Abu Galyon

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« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2012, 07:01:35 pm »
This topic has been dormant for years, but almost certainly there are still new varieties to be listed and catalogued, and I think this is one:

Weight: 12.45g
Diameter: 30mm

Nimbus:  
Book:   within a jewelled border
Reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament:  

My comments: The four-dot Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament is known as a nimbus pattern, but I’ve never seen it before as a decoration for the Gospel book. The reverse is close to Grierson’s type A2.14a. The font for the reverse inscription also seems similar to that used in the DOC A2.14a example (which is illustrated as a plate coin), so perhaps a product of the same mint. The letters appear to my eye somewhat smaller and more ‘rustic’ than the usual lettering found in this series.

Bill R.

 

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