Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem  (Read 20917 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« on: February 27, 2011, 02:32:09 pm »
I admit I am very new to the collection of ancient coins and biblical coins.  However, I have really developed an interest in the biblically related coins, even if I can't read proto-Hebrew for squat (after reading the discussion threads on the same and getting help from aarmale).  I just wanted to give you an idea of my experience base in case this question seems elementary to more experienced collectors.

Of course, I have looked at the shekels of Tyre as an important example of a biblically related coin.  I see some places they are listed as minted in Tyre.  In some places they are listed as minted in Jerusalem.  In some places, like the Forvm, they are listed as minted in Tyre or Jerusalem.  I understand this surrounds the later "KP" types.

I have read Meshorer's theory about the Jerusalem minting of these coins by Herod in TJC.  My question is, how is this theory generally accepted?  Is there a consensus, or not that the later "KP" shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem.  To me, as a novice, it would seem that if Herod, or any other Jewish king, was going to mint coins for use at the Temple, they would use that as a perfect opportunity for propaganda.  Why wouldn't they put "Jerusalem the holy" or use Jewish symbols instead of continuing with Melkart?  That part does not make sense to me, so any input to enlighten me would be greatly appreciated. 

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 06:10:52 pm »
I'd very much like an answer to that one myself! The Temple, of course, insisted on pure silver. Technically, a shekel was a weight, and if the silver was adulterated, the weight would be short. That would be a breach of the Law. The commandment to abstain from images was presumably regarded as being superseded by the requirement for pure silver, as the Jews never minted their own silver coin between the Yehud coinage and the First Revolt, and coins were convenient. Later, of course, the Romans debased the local currencies, but the shekel of Tyre continued to be minted in pure silver, doubtless as a token issued purely for the Temple. that's straightforward, but if Herod did take over minting, a problem arises.

There's now no need for the image on the coin, and therefore no need to tolerate it! Herod wanted to be seen as a 'proper' Jew - why else would he have rebuilt the Temple in such grandiose fashion? So why didn't he issue a kosher coin, of he had control of the minting? There's no evidence of opposition to the image on the Tyrian shekel, and the barbarous shekels retain it. But when it comes to the Temple minting shekels, the image is gone. They clearly weren't prepared to tolerate it under those circumstances. I think myself that the case is less convincing than Meshorer thought.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 09:07:45 pm »
Herod was a very complex man to say the least! If indeed this series was minted by Herod in Jerusalem it makes him an even more complex man.  I'm just thinking out loud here but because the Tyre Shekel was the acceptable standard and was virtually unchanged for a long period of time, it would make sense to keep the design the same so that everyone would know it was "kosher" for silver purity.  In otherwords nobody complained so why mess with it.  When the zealots took over the story changed. 

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 09:42:06 pm »
Quote
because the Tyre Shekel was the acceptable standard and was virtually unchanged for a long period of time, it would make sense to keep the design the same so that everyone would know it was "kosher" for silver purity.

I wondered that myself.  Then again, what a better way to aggrandize himself than minting the first silver Jewish coinage.  Even if he was going to use a graven image (like his eagle lepton/half-prutah), why not use a Jewish symbol instead of the patron god of Tyre?  I thought I read somewhere Tyre revolted against Rome some time around the change in the appearance of the shekels.  If that was the case, and Herod was a "friend" of Rome, why keep their coinage?

The only other thought I had was the money changers.  If the Temple system derived profits from changing other currency to shekels of Tyre, maybe they wanted to keep that enterprise going.  Then again, Jews visiting from Alexandria or elsewhere would still need to change their money from home to coins accepted by the Temple, whether minted in Tyre or Jerusalem.

Is there any archaeological evidence anyone is aware of for or against the minting of these shekels in Jerusalem?

Offline Danny S. Jones

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
  • Danny Jones
    • FORVM Library of Ancient Coinage
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 11:27:40 pm »
It could be that since Judea was not already authorized to mint silver coinage that it was necessary as some sort of compromise to keep the Tyrian imagery since they were to continue the Tyrian standard. That said, I am not completely convinced of the Jerusalem mint theory, and would love to see more evidence one way or the other. 

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2011, 07:41:58 am »
I was digging to see if I could find any more information, and hopefully some archaeological information on this topic.  I found one, 2008, article concerning the find of one coin during an excavation (not so helpful, although interesting).  What I did note about the article was that it was attributed to the Israel Antiquities Authority, and it says "The annual half-shekel head tax was given in shekel and half shekel coins from the Tyre mint, where they were struck from the year 125 BCE until the outbreak of the Great Revolt in 66 CE." (emphasis added).

I take this to mean the Israel Antiquities Authority is of the opinion these coins were minted at Tyre, and there is no mention of minting in Israel, much less Jerusalem.

The full article is here:  http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early+History+-+Archaeology/Rare+ancient+coin+found+in+Jerusalem+excavations+19-Mar-2008.htm

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 07:48:39 am »
Ok, I don't know why the link didn't work correctly.  If you copy and past it in your browser, you can get to the article as opposed to clicking on it.  Sorry about that.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 08:19:07 am »
David Hendin has a shekel with the "Jerusalem" mint mark above what is said to be a monogram of Herod.

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 09:48:29 am »
Quote
David Hendin has a shekel with the "Jerusalem" mint mark above what is said to be a monogram of Herod.

I'm not sure what/where this is, but I would be interested to see.  Could it be the shekel with the "KP" monogram which is the type ascribed to Herod/Jerusalem by some?

Meshorer's argument that the later/KP type shekels were minted in Jerusalem has several points.  Would Herod, an important King of the East, not have minted silver, while other contemporary rules did-like Aretas IV of Nabataea?  The style of the shekels changed to include cruder style and smaller flans while maintaining the relatively high silver content while other coins of the era were becoming debased.  The coins saw the addition of the "KP" monogram around 18 B.C..  Around this same time, other cities in the East which had produce Seleucid or autonomous silver coins either ceased production, or began to produce Roman provincial silver coins.  I'm not an expert on Judaism or Jewish law, but I understand the Mishna also required the Temple Tax be paid in pure silver, and specifically gives the example of Tyrian currency.  Finally, the production of Tyrian shekels ended in 65/66 A.D. which corresponds with the Jewish revolt but has no meaning to Tyre.

In an article "One Hundred Ninety Years of Tyrian Shekels"  (Studies in Honor of Leo Mildenburg Numismatics, Art History, Archeology Wetteren, 1984, pp. 171-180), Meshorer  generally cites some archaeological evidence that early shekels were found primarily in Lebanon, while later shekels were found in the Judaea-Samaria-Galilee area

It appears Mesheror reached the conclusion the later shekels were minted in Jerusalem later in his carrer.  In an article from 1978, he notes the shekels of Tyre were minted in Tyre until about 65 A.D. at which time he states Nero issued debased provincial tetradrachmas from the mint in Antioch.  (The Holy Land in Coins, March 1978, Biblical Archaeology Society).  With debased silver flooding the land, there was no way more pure silver could compete (if you could buy the same goods for debased versus pure silver, why use the pure silver).  He notes the last 50 years of Tyrian shekels exhibit stylistic alterations which indicate they may have originated from a different mint, and Meshorer notes "some scholars" suggest they were minted by Jewish authorities in Jerusalem.

A lot of Meshorer's points for Jerusalem minting of Tyrian shekels make sense.  I was looking for more archeolgical evidence when I ran accross these articles, but archeogical evidence isn't what I was able to find.  As for the archealgical evidence mentioned by Meshorer, I don't doubt Tyrian shekels were found in and around Judaea whereever they were minted.  Even if they were minted in Tyre, the assumption is they are for use to pay Temple obligations (not just the Temple Tax, but also Pidyon Ha-Ben), and so they would have ended up in areas with dense Jewish settlements.  Even given all that, my initial concern remains, if you are going to mint your own coins, why not put your symbols on them?  Why continue using, not just a graven image, but the image of another city's god?  Why not "Jerusalem the holy" instead of Tyre? 

Offline Aarmale

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 09:58:39 am »
David Hendin has a shekel with the "Jerusalem" mint mark above what is said to be a monogram of Herod.
Now this I have to see.  Should someone email him?
I assume that a Herod monogram would be  :Greek_Eta: :Greek_Rho: together?

-Aarmale
Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 10:10:14 am »
Hendin just emailed me that it is not likely the shekels were minted in Jerusalem, but rather minted in Tyre for Jerusalem. 

Offline rover1.3

  • Tribunus Plebis 2012 / Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1569
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 10:12:14 am »
I guess that's the coin,right? The monogram reads ΗΡΔ
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 10:17:47 am »
I would think so.  The description there also echos what he emailed me.   "this monogram possibly represents the name of Herod, who apparently ordered the manufacture of these coins from Tyre, to be shipped to Jerusalem for use at the Temple"



Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 11:40:34 am »
I guess that's the coin,right? The monogram reads ΗΡΔ
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

That's the one.  David must be getting a lot of emails about Tyre shekels.  I sent him one earlier this week.  

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 12:44:42 pm »
Quote
David must be getting a lot of emails about Tyre shekels.

Probably so.  He probably knows what's going on on the discussion boards by what people email him questions about.  I got another response from him.  He indiated Brooks Levy is the authority on this subject.  I found one of her articles (Later Tyrian shekels: dating the "crude" crude issues; reading the controls) and refutes Meshorer's theory about the Jerusalem minting.  Hendin said she proofed the section in his 5th edition book on the subject, and he indicated Meshorer's theory is pretty much rejected now.

I don't always have the best luck posting links, but here is a link to one of her articles:

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Apparently, there is a second article which I cannot find online (Brooks Levy, Tyrian Shekels and the First Jewish War, Proceedings of the XIth International Numismatic Congress, 1991, pgs 2267-274) where she also refutes Meshorer's theory of Jerusalem minting. 


Here's a chart on dating Tyrian shekels I found in an earlier discussion thread, but it assumes the Jerusalem mint:
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2011, 01:13:04 pm »
And finally, a catalog description of a shekel of Tyre with a "KP" monogram summarizing the positions above:

"Meshorer believed that the Tyre shekels struck with the letters KP in the right field were struck at Jerusalem. To support his argument, Meshorer quoted the Talmud: "Silver, whenever mentioned in the Pentateuch, is Tyrian silver. What is a Tyrian silver [coin]? It is a Jerusalemite" (Tosephta Kethuboth 13:20). Princeton's Brooks Levy, however, has concluded that they were more probably issues of Tyre that may, indeed, have been manufactured at the request of Herod or Temple authorities in Jerusalem since these were the only coins acceptable to the Temple authorities while they were in circulation."

I'm no expert, but given my initial reservations outlined at the beginning, I tend to believe Brooks Levy and David Hendin in this regard, that the shekels of Tyre were minted in Tyre, although perhaps at the direction of Herod, and the circumstantial evidence outlined by Meshorer for Jerusalem minting has alternate explanations.

Offline Aarmale

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2011, 03:58:22 pm »
Very interesting.  If this monogram of  :Greek_Eta: :Greek_Rho: :Greek_Delta: is Herod, that would be a numismatic breakthrough.

Heres a Meshorer article: http://www.israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/shekel/teachings/meshorer.htm

Does this look like a Herod monogram? This looks a monogram of HP, but it might be KP.
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי

Offline Aarmale

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2011, 05:19:39 pm »
Heres a compilation of monograms I found.  I have tried to write in what the letters of the monogram are.
Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2011, 05:59:56 pm »
I have both Brooks Levi's papers, and I seem to have got the scanner working again. If anyone wants a copy of the other one, let me know, and I'll try to scan it.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2011, 07:41:10 pm »
Quote
I have both Brooks Levi's papers

I would absolutely love a copy if it's not too much trouble.  I spent a good deal of time today trying to find them online, but I was unsuccessful.  Please let me know.

Offline Snegovik

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 811
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2011, 09:38:42 am »
Very interesting.  If this monogram of  :Greek_Eta: :Greek_Rho: :Greek_Delta: is Herod, that would be a numismatic breakthrough.

Heres a Meshorer article: http://www.israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/shekel/teachings/meshorer.htm

Does this look like a Herod monogram? This looks a monogram of HP, but it might be KP.
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]


Years 20 and 33 are both long before Herod was even born.
Illegitimi non carborundum

Offline Aarmale

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2011, 05:04:27 pm »
True. 
I also just realized the monograms were of  :Greek_Eta: :Greek_Rho: :Greek_Alpha:.

-Aarmale
Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי

Offline Ibex-coins

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2011, 07:03:59 pm »
Sorry to once again be late to the discussion.  Today there are very few people who ascribe to Meshorer's provocative theory that the later shekels of Tyre were minted in Jerusalem.  Among the numismatist who are currently the big thinkers of ancient Jewish coins you would be hard pressed to find any who follow Meshorer's  theory, Brooks Levy was simply the first to publicly contradict this theory, which is why Hendin quotes here in his volume 4 of his book and is also why she is so well known for shooting it down.  However it was grounds for innovative thinking that asked the question as to why the shekels began to have the interesting Kappa Rho monogram.  It seems that it in some ways designates that Caesar gave his blessing to these coins continually being minted after local citydisturbances in  Tyre around 20-18 B.C.E had the local civilian government incur the displeasure of Rome.  We can imagine that Herod with his great influence with the authorities in Rome was able to convince Caessar of the importance of keeping this important coin being minted, and was able to stress to Caeasr why the purity of these coins should be preserved.  I have even heard the theory that the Kappa Rho might indicated these coins were minted in Caesarea Maritima rather than Tyre (not sure how likely that is, but there certainly was a mint there).

In terms of the graven images on the shekels of tyre, it may have been the need for a highly pure silver superseded that worries of graven images.  The Persians had various levels of silver purity that were used during the administration of their empire.  This system appears to have been adopted by the Egyptian satraps of Persia as well.  Pure silver was often required for payment of taxes and tribute.  Many institutions that the Jews developed after the return from Persian exile were heavily influenced by the Jewish experience under Persian rule.  The use of high-grade silver for payment of the temple tax is probably an adaptation of the Persian requirement for pure silver for payment to the central treasury.  Thus it makes sense that the Jews required the payment of the temple tax from the most consistent stream of silver coin available to them and thus the Silver Shekels of Tyre were the preferred payment of choice.

Ronn Berrol

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2011, 09:09:01 am »
The day I started this thread, I sent an email to the Head of the Coin Department at the Israel Antiquities Authority about the issue. I received a response today.  Donald Ariel, Head, Coin Department, said that the theory late shekels were minted in Jerusalem came from Meshorer (as an aside, he said Meshorer was one of his teachers).  He echos what Ibex-coins posted, that Levy was merely one scholar who challenged this theory.  He indicates that all evidence that these coins were minted in Jerusalem contradicts Meshorer, and the idea is rejected in the academic community. 


Offline Ibex-coins

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2011, 01:26:47 am »
In INJ Volume 17, Yoav Farhi, Uri Davidovich Yuval Gado and Oded Lipshcits give a partial list of others who wrote commentary disputing the theory that the later shekels of Tyre were minted in Jerusalem.  The list includes:

A Burnett, M. Amandry and P.P. Ripolles in RPC, Vol 1
B levy, listing both her seminal articles.
T. Hacken and G. Moucharte, Proceedings of the XIth INternational Numismatic Congress
W. Wiser and H. Cotton, Tyrischen Silbergeld
T. Ariel, A Numismatic Approach to Herod the great

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity