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Author Topic: Greek Eastern Empires !  (Read 1165 times)

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Offline solon

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Greek Eastern Empires !
« on: February 11, 2012, 10:24:20 am »
AE 20,  5.50gr. Obv: Male bust right some object in front of his face. Rev: Prow of galley right with two sails.
No inscriptions at all on this coin. It resemble phoenician coins but I could not find anything similar.
Any help is warmly welcomed to identify it. Thank you.

Offline Tony A

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 12:34:50 pm »
Interesting coin! Needs some cleaning, especially on the obverse. The reverse shows what looks to be a trading ship instead of the usual war-trireme - and that suggests a Greek maritime trading city. I looked through Thessalonika and Athens, but didn't find a match. You might want to check Rhodes or the Anatolian coastal cities.

Good luck!

Best, Tony

Offline solon

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 01:01:43 pm »
Thank you Tony, so far I reached nothing on the Anatolian coastal cities. Actually the obverse and the reverse of the coin is completely clean. I think there is a large spearhead on the front of the male bust on obverse. If it is any help?
Thank you again.

Offline Ginolerhino

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 02:06:49 pm »
whay a bizarre coin. Could you post much better pictures?

Offline solon

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 03:57:50 pm »
Here is another picture if it helps...!

Offline Tony A

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 04:06:51 pm »
I'm at a loss here, my friend!

I checked Gadara, Rhodes, New Cathage, Carthage, Pisidia, Roman Republic (there are a few ship reverses during the Punic Wars), and several other Greek port cities. No luck.

I enlarged it in picassa and flipped it around ... UGH! (I know the feeling!) Kind of like a rorschach test!
When I flipped the obverse around, it reminded me a little bit of a bowl-shaped fire vessel under an amphora - but like a portait when put in original position.
And, it could be the rudder of a ship instead of a prow.

Not much help, but ...
Sorry I couldn't help more.
Tony

bakkar

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 04:14:02 pm »
Imitation of rare coin, Caracalla from Singara in Mesopotamia.
I have a regular issue.

Bakkar

Offline Tony A

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 04:40:05 pm »
Imitation? What are the figures on the Caracalla reverse? A profile of ...? Standards in background? Reclining nymph?
Interesting ...
I figured the only person to recognize this was someone who owned one, or in this case, owned the one it was copied from.
Another thing to learn today!
Tony

bakkar

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 04:57:04 pm »
It is  Centaur (Sagittarius) advancing right, shooting arrow; two vexilla in background.
Tyche head r. behind.

Bakkar

Offline Tony A

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 05:39:46 pm »
Hail bakkar! This coin had about 87 passes before somebody - you - knew what it was. Looked like a ship's bow to me and the obverse had me flipping it around to try and get an angle on it! Time for an eye exam, maybe!
Tony

Offline solon

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 04:41:50 am »
Thank you very much for your help Tony. Thank you also Bakkar but I don't think that this coin is an imitation at all ! When you look at the crack of the coin and closely examine into the surface of the metal one can see that it is not a modern imitation !
Anyway thank you again to both of you for your help
Regards.

Offline Ginolerhino

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2012, 07:02:16 am »
Thank you very much for your help Tony. Thank you also Bakkar but I don't think that this coin is an imitation at all ! When you look at the crack of the coin and closely examine into the surface of the metal one can see that it is not a modern imitation !
Anyway thank you again to both of you for your help
Regards.

But he never meant it was a modern fake ! Many imitations have been minted in Antiquity when not enough official coins were available. In Gaul for example an enormous quantity of unofficial Postumus large bronzes were made in the late IIIrd C, and even more "barbarous radiates", imitations of AE antoniniani of several emperors. For this extremely interesting Singara coin, I wonder if it is an imitation at all or just an official one from a schematic pair of dies. Or could it be a medieval imitation during the crusades, minted under the Zenjids or the Atruqids?

Offline Tony A

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 11:02:17 am »
Ginolerhino isn't implying it's a "fake," only that it's possibly a barbarous imitation (which can be as interesting and, sometimes, more valuable than the original!). So don't worry about that!
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I think the reason for conjecturing the coin might be an imitation is that the position of the spear seems to be a little lower down on the face on the obverse, and the lack of details on the reverse. The dirt tends to spread and exaggerate the high points and cover the finer details of the coin, so it's hard to determine one way or another.
The coin is rather shiny, and I'm wondering if it's been waxed. Not a bad thing at all, but it does tend to make coins hard to get correct lighting on for pictures.
Have you considered further cleaning? A good soak in Gringott's and scrubbing might show some more detail and allow you to determine more of the details. Or do you want to leave well-enough alone?
For me, curiosity would get the better of me and I'd want to see what's under the dirt. But that's me ...
Good coin, in either case.
Tony

Offline solon

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 02:13:31 pm »
Hello Tony,

As I mentioned below the coin is completely cleaned. You can even see the red color of the bronze metal. Have you ever come across the previous sales of this coin by any chance?
Thank you again to all of you for your help.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 04:00:03 pm »
It's as clean as it's going to get, but is that bronze disease or the remnants of patina in the cracks?
Robert Brenchley

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bakkar

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 04:05:01 pm »

. Or could it be a medieval imitation during the crusades, minted under the Zenjids or the Atruqids?

Hi Ginolerhino
Some Artuqid and Zangid states issued coins with imitated Greek and Roman portraits and bust types, but they were official coins with Arabic legend , dates and mints. They did not issue copies of ancient coins as they were. Zangids of Aleppo only imitated contemporary figural
Byzantine copper coins without adding Arabic inscription. Here are examples of different Artuqid
and Zangid coins with imitations of bRoman and Seleucid portraits.

Bakkar

Offline Ginolerhino

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 05:59:09 pm »
Hi Bakkar
Of course you are right, Zengid and Artuqid coins were official coinages, always with arabic legends. It was just a silly supposition... I made it because I have never seen an unofficial imitation of a IIIrd C oriental civic coin. These imitations were frequent in Gaul, maybe also in Illyricum, but I had never seen any for Syria or Mesopotamia. In your own collection do you have such oriental imitations?

Offline Gert

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2012, 03:01:01 am »
This is not a barbarous imitation at all. This type was minted in a number of different issues and styles, and Bakkar's coin is of exceptionally good style. However, typically, this type is of very crude style and struck on severly undersized flans, like Solon's example.

I am still wondering what's written on the vexilla on Bakkar's coin, since the first time he posted it, but with this photo that's impossible to determine, I think.
Regards
Gert

bakkar

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2012, 09:33:04 am »
In your own collection do you have such oriental imitations?


Both Singara and Rhesaena issued coins with this reverse type
I think what Gert refers to is those crude coins of Elagabalus from Rhesaena (Please see the two auctioned coins to the left which are closer to your coin).

I seldom come through crude issues like these but the good style coins are frequently seen . Please compare with the two good style coins to the right from the same mint.

H.Bakkar

Offline Ginolerhino

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Re: Greek Eastern Empires !
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2012, 11:37:31 am »
How interesting. So Solon's coin is not an imitation at all...

 

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