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Author Topic: A Roman moneyer in training?  (Read 484 times)

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Offline Jan P

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A Roman moneyer in training?
« on: January 16, 2022, 05:54:30 am »
What happened here?
Was this piece struck by a Roman moneyer in trainig?
Was the moneyers' sonny in the officina?

Subject of this topic is a strange Roman silver coin:
Double struck, hybrid and under weight for the Denarius it should be.

Obvers: Nero
Neck hair and back of head repeated under angle.

Revers: Vespasian RIC1395 - Titus & Domitian
Domitian and "AVG" under remarkable angel

Weight: 2,56 g. However the metal seems solid and there is no trace of "fourrée".

This piece should never have left the officina! But it did.
Here it is:

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2022, 09:53:16 am »
I wonder what the small circle upon Neros' head is there for?

Offline Ron C2

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2022, 10:42:20 am »
What is the time difference between the obverse and reverse? Many hybrids are unofficially struck outside the approved mint.
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Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2022, 11:33:07 am »
Hello Ron C2,
Let's say the Denarius type Nero bearheaded around 60 AD.
The Vespasian RIC 1395 = 69-70 AD.
Say, 10 years in between.
At its earliest the piece must be struck under Vespasians' reign.

Offline Ron C2

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2022, 11:45:56 am »
With that spread, the odds of it being from an official mint are remote, in my view.
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Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2022, 01:43:01 pm »
So ...?
In your opinion it must be a forgery?

Offline djmacdo

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2022, 02:01:43 pm »
I think the coin has been holed and plugged.

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2022, 03:47:52 pm »
... hence the circle above te head.
One wonders, why should anybody hole such a monsterous coin to wear around his (or her) neck ::)? Oddity maybe.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2022, 04:20:57 pm »
In eastern Europe in recent centuries many coins were holed for attachment in groups, so the attractiveness of a single coin may not have mattered--it was usable just as long as it was shiny!

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2022, 04:52:27 pm »
Yes, there must definitely have been a hole which later was filled up. So, what you write is logical.
Thank you "djmacdo". The piece did not seem yet handicapped enough :laugh:!

Offline Ron C2

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2022, 05:35:10 pm »
So ...?
In your opinion it must be a forgery?

I think it's perhaps an ancient barbarous immitative. I don't think it's a modern fake.
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Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2022, 04:46:30 am »
Yes Ron C2, a barbarous imitation might be possible.
On the other hand, the piece, being dramatically struck, the used dies seem genuine enough to me.
Yes, Nero has a boxers' face, but that is what the double struck was responslble for, I think.
It looks like genuine old dies were used here, do you not think?

Offline Ron C2

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2022, 07:16:45 am »
Old and official are not the same thing. Some of the visible obverse lettering is crude for neronic coinage. I don't like the R at 10, for example.

My personal vote is barbarous immitation.
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Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2022, 08:16:25 am »
I think, I made a mistake in "Reply 3" here. I said "Nero bearheaded", where as it should be "laureate".
But I do not know if that is so important here.
I looked up a Nero Denarius coin, simple legend and Nero a bit wild haired, like ours and found the RIC71.
Here, the "R" is not at 10 o'clock, but do you find it very different from the "R" on our piece?

No,no ... I do not go for a long topic here and I respect certainly your personal vote, but I am not totally convinced.

Offline Pekka K

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2022, 09:38:28 am »

Nero / Vespasian hybrid may be unusual, but not impossible:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8651672

Pekka K

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2022, 11:26:10 am »
Thank you very much, Pekka K !!! That is an interesting piece in this topic.
And yes, Ron C2, I notice "Imitating Rome mint"!
This piece is a fourrée. So maybe mine is too, with the traces extra camouflaged by the filler of the hole ::).
Very glad with this evolution Pekka K and yes, I am now steering your way Ron C2 ;).

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2022, 12:54:41 pm »
Remarks come usually after reflection.
For both of these hybrids, the Nero-side is the outdated die. Head and legend of this Nero Denarius type look very similar on both.
If there are more, this must lead us to somewhere ...

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2022, 03:44:44 pm »
Meanwhile I learned a lot searching here on the forum under "Roman hybrid"... Roman hybrids are many, most of the Denarii are fourrées and struck outside the mints ... and more ...
If I had read this first, I would not have had the audacity to doubt Ron C2s' words. This for so far hybrid.
How the coin came to be so strangely struck is another question.

Offline Ron C2

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 06:21:21 pm »
Double strikes are not so unusual, even in official mints.  But having the second strike being 30 degrees off is an unusual thing for official mintage of that era.
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Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2022, 03:56:02 am »
Let's say, we keep training in the title, but remove "a Roman moneyer".
And even training could as well be accident ;).
Thank you Ron C2, for being so patient with me.

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2022, 03:57:33 am »
Just this last question:
This piece being a fourrée, could it be possible that the filler of the hole (remember the circle above Nero's head) has caused a melting problem on the reverse?
Or are the traces of double struck on the avers enough explanation of the remarkable situation on the revers?

With other words:
Do I have a remarkable double struck here or a totally messed up coin?

Offline djmacdo

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2022, 07:09:58 am »
"Do I have a remarkable double struck here or a totally messed up coin?"

Those are not necessarily different things.

Offline Jan P

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Re: A Roman moneyer in training?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2022, 05:25:39 am »
Fihi ma fihi.
It is what it is.

 

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