Author Topic: FORTUNA REDUX AVG N, a new Constantine reverse type. (Read 5109 times)

Nikko · « **on:** February 18, 2011, 04:52:43 am »

I'm proud to show you a coin recently posted in the italian board.

I loooks to be a new, unlisted in RIC and Cohen, Constantine's follis from Rome mint.

D// CONSTANTINVS AVG, helmeted & cuirassed bust right

R// FORTUNA REDUX AVG N, Fortuna seated left, holding rudder and cornucopiae. P to left, R to right. RT in exergue.

Probably minted in 318-319.

mwilson603 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:23:29 am »

Nikko,
I am officially envious. I love it!
regards
Mark

maridvnvm · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:41:27 am »

What are the other letters before the AVGG, looks like D V ?
Great find.
Regards,
Martin

Nikko · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:50:23 am »

Mark, i'm envious too...this jewel isn't in my hands

Martin, it looks PA...so i think that could be FORTUNAE PAX AVGG

Pekka K · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:54:29 am »

Or maybe: FORTVNA REDVX AVGG?

Pekka K

Nikko · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2011, 06:00:11 am »

Quote from: Pekka K on February 18, 2011, 05:54:29 am

Or maybe: FORTVNA REDVX AVGG?

Pekka K

I agree!

Nikko · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2011, 06:19:31 am »

It could be FORTUNA REDUX AVG N!

benito · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2011, 06:24:15 am »

Quote from: Nikko on February 18, 2011, 06:19:31 am

It could be FORTUNA REDUX AVG N!

I agree

curtislclay · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2011, 09:59:18 am »

Nice type, nice coin!

What are size and weight and axis?

Nikko · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2011, 10:08:39 am »

Diameter should be almost 19 mm.

Mark Z · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:47:44 am »

Great find in fantastic condition!

Are either or both the obverse and/or reverse to be found separately on other coins?

mz

Nikko · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:59:05 pm »

This obverse is a common one that could be easily find on Rome mint coins.

Coins with Fortuna were quite scarce within Tetrarchy coinage but under Constantine reign no one had been minted....since this specimen!

Emanuele Giulianelli · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2011, 04:32:25 pm »

Quote from: Nikko on February 18, 2011, 12:59:05 pm

This obverse is a common one that could be easily find on Rome mint coins.

Coins with Fortuna were quite scarce within Tetrarchy coinage but under Constantine reign no one had been minted....since this specimen!

what do you think about it? what is your opinion?

Vincent · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:47:15 am »

I saw this exact coin posted elsewhere and I was blown away also. My impression it either was a trail strike or a single event issue of some special occassion by the Imperial family. Needless to say, fortune did smile upon Constantine!

romeman · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2011, 11:23:06 am »

I guess many of us are unable to follow the discussions in the Italian section, so I will post something about it here as well.

The reverse legend is FORTVNA REDVX AVG N. The weight is 2.658g. Axis 180 degrees.

This is the only one known specimen. I am lucky to have photographs of 1,290 other coins from the Rome P R /RP series ( RIC VII 143-224 ), where this coin belongs and where there may be potential die matches allowing a pin-pointing of its position, but among them there is not a single die match with the obverse of the Fortuna redux coin. I keep looking.

Heliodromus · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:37:28 pm »

Really a great coin! The condition on top of the unknown type really is the kicker!

Would you mind posting a large photo of the obverse too?

Did you figure which campaign it's most likely referring to?

Ben

romeman · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2011, 03:14:12 pm »

The obverse is difficult to interpret. I cannot fond another die by this celator. The horisontal crest end is used by just a few celators (one or perhaps two) at Rome at this time. One might think that this is a bronze trial strike for a gold coin, but Constantine is not known to have been in Rome anytime near (and gold was almost exclusively struck where the emperor was). In my view, it is a regular bronze coin of the P R /RP series, but I could be wrong.

The P R /RP series shows considerable experimenting. For reasons unknown to me, the mint of Rome had the opportunity to experiment with types lacking precedence in Constantine's coinage. An example: the so-called camp gates (which they are not, of course) had a long history before Constantine. The mint of Rome, however, played with a completely new type, the 3-D gate. Two examples are shown here.

Only a comprehensive die study can shed light on which of the varied types were struck together. Knowledge of that might, perhaps, give clues to the broader message that Constantine wanted to transmit. If there was such a message. In any case, the die study is on its way.

romeman · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2011, 03:16:47 pm »

The obverse of FORTVNA REDVX AVG N.

Heliodromus · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2011, 05:57:21 pm »

Thanks! Those 3-D "campgates" are awesome, and new to me - thanks for sharing.

I'll be interested to see your die study when the time comes.

The changing mix of helmets used at Rome at this time (on the vota types as well as the P-R reverses) appears to give a very strong clue to the sequencng (which RIC, which doesn't properly record them, gets wrong).

The archaic pseudo-Corinthian helmet seems to come first (used exclusively on pax perpetva, saecvli felicitas, and extremely rarely on the 5 line vota type), then we see the "VLPP" helmet types, and finally the visored helmet which is then the norm until it disappears. Based on this we can see not only that the innovative pax/saecvli come first, but also that the vota types (introduced after these) appear to have been issued in parallel with the P-R types. This sequencng puts the more regular campgate (coordinated with Licinius) and roma aet XV (cf vota types being introduced at other mints) at the end of this group.

Your FORT RED, based on helmet type, would appear to have been issued later rather than earlier in this group of coins.

Ben

Holding_History · « **Reply #19 on:** February 24, 2011, 09:10:07 am »

Wow, those campgates are cool, and so is the fortuna! For the campgates, I am glad that the Roman die engravers had as hard of a time drawing 3D squares as I do

. I will have to keep my eyes out for those, not that I will find any, but who knows, maybe one day, in a unattributed lot....
Nathan

romeman · « **Reply #20 on:** February 24, 2011, 03:53:18 pm »

Quote from: Congius on February 23, 2011, 05:57:21 pm

The changing mix of helmets used at Rome at this time (on the vota types as well as the P-R reverses) appears to give a very strong clue to the sequencng (which RIC, which doesn't properly record them, gets wrong).

The archaic pseudo-Corinthian helmet seems to come first (used exclusively on pax perpetva, saecvli felicitas, and extremely rarely on the 5 line vota type), then we see the "VLPP" helmet types, and finally the visored helmet which is then the norm until it disappears. Based on this we can see not only that the innovative pax/saecvli come first, but also that the vota types (introduced after these) appear to have been issued in parallel with the P-R types. This sequencng puts the more regular campgate (coordinated with Licinius) and roma aet XV (cf vota types being introduced at other mints) at the end of this group.

Your FORT RED, based on helmet type, would appear to have been issued later rather than earlier in this group of coins.

Ben

Thanks for your comments Ben. I'm happy to hear that someone has an interest in these coins. The helmets are indeed important, and one of the key features in these coins. And I wish sequencing could be based on helmet type. It is, however, more complicated than that. I'll give you an idea by listing the die links between different types. The list is based on 1290 coins. The longest die link sequence is only 7 dies long. There are two 7-die sequences and numerous 6-die sequences (and many many shorter ones). As the number of coins grows, sequences grow, and chances increase that some will connect and become really long. Only then will it be possible to get a broader picture (and at the same time an extremely detailed picture) of the sequence of striking. The direction of each sequence is still unknown. Occasionally die wear appears to indicate a direction, but nothing is certain so far.

I give the die links found in the coins known so far (formatting is lost when I paste it here so I'll give it as a jpg instead). Anyone interested can match them against helmet types or other features and maybe come up with something. I also give an example of a die link sequence. Have fun!

Adrianus · « **Reply #21 on:** April 17, 2011, 07:27:25 pm »

This is the stuff of numismatics! Die-links are so important and you are leading the way in this neglected series. Please keep us updated !

Regards,

Adrianus

Heliodromus · « **Reply #22 on:** April 22, 2011, 08:03:01 am »

Here's another one I just received from this die group (but not a match to those above).

Ben

romeman · « **Reply #23 on:** April 26, 2011, 12:15:57 pm »

Thanks for posting good photos, I'm grateful for that. I try to get these coins, but I missed this Spanish auction. Nice catch! Your photo confirms the die match I found for your reverse (based on the eBay image), image attached. Sadly, I missed that auction as well, so the photo is tiny. Your obverse has no die match in my material.

My archive includes most coins from the Rome mint RIC VII 143-224 sold in the last 15 years (auctions and eBay), plus most in major museum collections in Europe. If you or anyone else has coins from that interval, and would like to help me in my die study by supplying images of those coins, I would be most grateful. Any coin identifiable to dies is of interest.

Thanks.

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Author Topic: FORTUNA REDUX AVG N, a new Constantine reverse type. (Read 5109 times)

Emanuele Giulianelli