Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet Challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins!!!

Recent Additions to Forum's Shop


Author Topic: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?  (Read 332 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« on: October 08, 2021, 10:41:23 pm »
Hello friends I recently encounter this Roma AV 60 asses and I found it is different from many other examples,although the weight seems OK (3.35g) and 60 asses was mint from many dies.Is this a good one or actually a fake (maybe mordern die fake)? ???


Offline glebe

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1246
    • Glebe Coins
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2021, 01:12:05 am »
Astarte XIX-641 seems to be die match.

Ross G.

(For the moment I can't post a pic. - there's something wrong with something somewhere)

OK - now it works

Offline Altamura

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2122
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2021, 01:42:00 am »
... (For the moment I can't post a pic. - there's something wrong with something somewhere) ...
But a link: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=294718  (if you meant that, because it is Astarte XIX 841).

Regards

Altamura

Edit: It worked with glebe's picture now, but the link still might be useful.

Offline glebe

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1246
    • Glebe Coins
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2021, 01:48:18 am »
Indeed it is 841, as indicated by the label on the pic.

Ross G.

Offline Altamura

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2122
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2021, 02:09:36 am »
I saw this is already the second try :): https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=126128.msg758771#msg758771

The remarks there on the special features of the coin are still valid, aren't they?

At least among the examples in CRRO you don't find something similar: http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-44.2

You could have a look into the Schaefer Roman Republican Die Study, Crawford 44/2 begins here on slide 10: http://numismatics.org/archives/ark:/53695/schaefer.rrdp.b03#schaefer.rrdp.b03_0016
perhaps you find something.

Regards

Altamura

Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2021, 05:14:57 am »
Astarte XIX-641 seems to be die match.

Ross G.

(For the moment I can't post a pic. - there's something wrong with something somewhere)

OK - now it works
I saw this is already the second try :): https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=126128.msg758771#msg758771

The remarks there on the special features of the coin are still valid, aren't they?

At least among the examples in CRRO you don't find something similar: http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-44.2

You could have a look into the Schaefer Roman Republican Die Study, Crawford 44/2 begins here on slide 10: http://numismatics.org/archives/ark:/53695/schaefer.rrdp.b03#schaefer.rrdp.b03_0016
perhaps you find something.

Regards

Altamura

Thanks Ross and Altamura,these do a lot of help!I find this type in the link and slide 10,just in the middle. ;D
A friend said it may not be a good one so I posted it here,though he is not very sure about it.
The dots on the observe are very clear.After I read some mordern die fakes in the report,I was more confused...

Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2021, 09:40:30 am »
So folks are there any red flag for this one ? :police:

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 3884
  • I love this forum!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2021, 08:07:01 pm »
It seems to me there are red flags--the coin is not similar to attested specimens.  It may well be authentic, but there are doubts.  Or am I reading this incorrectly?

Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2021, 10:49:46 pm »
It seems to me there are red flags--the coin is not similar to attested specimens.  It may well be authentic, but there are doubts.  Or am I reading this incorrectly?

A similar die piece was sold at Astarte XIX has been indicated by glebe.
And with the help of Altamura I was able to find the same dies in the note of the Dr.Schaefer,one of them seems a 1992 sold piece.


Offline Din X

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2021, 07:39:23 am »
If fake it would be a recut transfer die fake, but to prove this a die study would be necessary to reconstruct which details were in the ancient dies in which die state.
I do not like the coin (lifeless, soapy surface, and some differences in details to die matches may be due to wrong recutting) but to prove it could be very difficult because I could not find enough die matches in good quality, which would be good enough for a representative die study.
To prove it is in such cases, especially if you know the result (fake or not) before is only for fun or self-affirmation.



In museum collections available at numismatics.org is not any die match, but I guess it could be possible to find more die matches in other museum collections, literature (like auction catalogues etc) if someone is willing to spend much time and money

http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-44.2

If someone is really interested and willing to spend much time and money he or she could of course prove it but, why sould anyone do this, if he/she will get in best case a thank you and the effort is in no relation to the value of the coin and the one who is doing it will get in best cases a thank you. I am sometimes doing such things, like spending much time and money (literature, to see authentic ones in hand or fakes or spend money for them to be digitalized) for research.
It seems like others do not see such things or appreaciate them but this is actually not necessary because it can be really fun to get to know more about such coins and helpping to get even better, so it can pay off at the end.
To do research for own coins is another case and always more interesting.

I own a Samos drachm, bought it very cheap from ebay, it was sold together with many old fakes, so most likely someone sold an old fake collection.
So it was first in my fake collection becasue I thought it must be fake because it was sold with fakes.
But it looks so convincing.
So I started research.
Of my coin a plaster cast is at Münzkabinett Berlin indicating that it was a long time ago condemed by director of Münzkabinett Julius Friedländer , Julius Friedländer has described a coin of this type in his book as fake.
So I bought Silver Coins of Samos by Barron, because my coin looks 100% authentic in hand and I have found die matches and die links in very old auction catalogues.
My coin is a die match to a coin considered by Barron as authentic and my coins is die liked to the other authentic Samos drachms of this type!
Research costed some time and money (book was expensive and travel to Berlin) but I really enjoyed it especially because it is my coin and it is 100% authentic, more authentic is not possible.
If it would not be my coin I would not have invested so much money and time for it.
And on the plaster cast of my coin a pedigree is written "Kiehn, Köln, 1935, 4, 59 bzw. Kiehn, Köln, 1935, (März)" but I couldn´t verify it so far.



 








Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2021, 10:03:18 am »
If fake it would be a recut transfer die fake, but to prove this a die study would be necessary to reconstruct which details were in the ancient dies in which die state.
I do not like the coin (lifeless, soapy surface, and some differences in details to die matches may be due to wrong recutting) but to prove it could be very difficult because I could not find enough die matches in good quality, which would be good enough for a representative die study.
To prove it is in such cases, especially if you know the result (fake or not) before is only for fun or self-affirmation.



In museum collections available at numismatics.org is not any die match, but I guess it could be possible to find more die matches in other museum collections, literature (like auction catalogues etc) if someone is willing to spend much time and money

http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-44.2

If someone is really interested and willing to spend much time and money he or she could of course prove it but, why sould anyone do this, if he/she will get in best case a thank you and the effort is in no relation to the value of the coin and the one who is doing it will get in best cases a thank you. I am sometimes doing such things, like spending much time and money (literature, to see authentic ones in hand or fakes or spend money for them to be digitalized) for research.
It seems like others do not see such things or appreaciate them but this is actually not necessary because it can be really fun to get to know more about such coins and helpping to get even better, so it can pay off at the end.
To do research for own coins is another case and always more interesting.

I own a Samos drachm, bought it very cheap from ebay, it was sold together with many old fakes, so most likely someone sold an old fake collection.
So it was first in my fake collection becasue I thought it must be fake because it was sold with fakes.
But it looks so convincing.
So I started research.
Of my coin a plaster cast is at Münzkabinett Berlin indicating that it was a long time ago condemed by director of Münzkabinett Julius Friedländer , Julius Friedländer has described a coin of this type in his book as fake.
So I bought Silver Coins of Samos by Barron, because my coin looks 100% authentic in hand and I have found die matches and die links in very old auction catalogues.
My coin is a die match to a coin considered by Barron as authentic and my coins is die liked to the other authentic Samos drachms of this type!
Research costed some time and money (book was expensive and travel to Berlin) but I really enjoyed it especially because it is my coin and it is 100% authentic, more authentic is not possible.
If it would not be my coin I would not have invested so much money and time for it.
And on the plaster cast of my coin a pedigree is written "Kiehn, Köln, 1935, 4, 59 bzw. Kiehn, Köln, 1935, (März)" but I couldn´t verify it so far.

Thanks Din,I read many of your replies and they are very helpful!
The picture is 20X-zoomed, 60 asses is very small for a 15mm size,and it is heavily cleaned for the observe.
The only die matches are metioned above,seems very difficult to find a clear picture in recent auction.

Offline Din X

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2021, 04:37:26 am »
I think that details look different than on the other authentic coins from these dies in this thread.
This could be due to wrong recutting of details, compare for example the crest of mars on obverse and dots of dotted border, feathers on reverse.
On Sicilian transfer die fakes the dotted border is often but not always recut.
I have at least two Sicilian transfer dies from same mother but they are idential except the dotted border which was different recut on both.
So comparing the dotted border can for example help to prove recutting.
I have looked but I could not find fakes or transfer dies exactly from these dies, so this is not helpping because I have only access to a very small number of all the fakes and dies produced by Sicilian forgers.
What I can tell is that I have not seen any real coin with such a surface so far but really many Sicilain  Gold fakes with such or a more convincing surface.
And in general such surface can be often found on bad transfer die fakes.
Only because I do not know that authentic coins with such surface can exist doesn not nesessarily mean that they could not exist but I for myself will only change my mind if I will see a 100% authentic coin (from excavation from untouched earth) with such a surface.



Offline Din X

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2021, 07:04:56 am »
Dots do not fit.

Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2021, 07:34:47 am »
Dots do not fit.
Yes, I agree,but seems they are very very close...besides, the first two pictures likely come from same coin (compare the reverse and the edge).
By the way the reverse is more likely the lower sample,but have different type of observse

This coin appears in 2017 here.
http://numismaclub.com/unt/176656-roman_republic_anonymous___211___208_bc___av_60_asses.html


Offline Din X

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2021, 07:51:59 am »
Yes, it seems like I counted dots 2 times dots of same coin but I think it is not changing the result only making it not so representative anymore if only 1 authentic coin was used instead of 2 for comparison.
Has this coin (picture first post, which is actually the numismaclub coin) been sold at ebay before, the pictures of numismaclub remind me of ebay sellers pictures.
And if we then could find out if the coin was sold before on ebay by and alias of the Sicilian fake sellers it could me the situation clearer.
Sadly there are very many coins missing on ebay archiv coinvac and it is not getting updates anymore.

Offline Din X

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2021, 08:09:17 am »
The Sicilian Ebay fake seller Anitnacoins alias filfrance44 alias Restbazar alias selin959 alias decussius alias Selin-Franc alias Pablo1724 (he used at catawiki.com), has used similar or identical flips and has similar or identical handwriting.
Sadly I do not have pictures of all the fakes sold by this fake seller with his aliases :(
Flips with Sicilian fake coins (all except top picture) were sold by NFS Restbazar, for hand writing comparison and where on the lip he worte which information becasue this can be very individual, too.
On top what it is, left size, right weight and on bottom references.
I for myself would place the informations different on the flip.
That there is written 60 Assi could imply that the writer is Italian.



Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2021, 10:21:18 am »
The Sicilian Ebay fake seller Anitnacoins alias filfrance44 alias Restbazar alias selin959 alias decussius alias Selin-Franc alias Pablo1724 (he used at catawiki.com), has used similar or identical flips and has similar or identical handwriting.
Sadly I do not have pictures of all the fakes sold by this fake seller with his aliases :(
Flips with Sicilian fake coins (all except top picture) were sold by NFS Restbazar, for hand writing comparison and where on the lip he worte which information becasue this can be very individual, too.
On top what it is, left size, right weight and on bottom references.
I for myself would place the informations different on the flip.
That there is written 60 Assi could imply that the writer is Italian.
Yeah,thanks for all of these,seems hard to find the outcome of this,the filp 2,3,5 shows same writing for 5,3,B...for same person,maybe we need a police expert to exam whether this handwriting came from the same seller. :-\

Offline sink9891

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I'm new. Welcome me!
Re: Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2021, 09:18:40 am »
Dots do not fit.

Maybe the lower simple fit,not this one


and I find bigger photos next slide:



and the reverse of the eagle and ROMA



I tried to match the observe,seems the dot fits.But the photo in the notes are not taken from 100% upper side (see the edge of the coin),so there exist some stretch compare to its orginal sample,adjust must be made to make a 100% scale fit.
this is an jpg animation:




 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity