Fake Verdigris?

[Schatz]

Hello fellow coin cleaners,

I have a number of bronzes, most of them from Elymais, which have what I consider to be fake verdigris outlines of portraits, figures, or objects. They came that way when I bought them, and I do not find this extra feature attractive. I soaked some of those coins in hot water and tried to remove the greenish caked-on powder, but it is not as easy as I hoped it would be. Some coins have evidently been waxed over the verdigris so that a mere bath won't do. Scraping gently seems to dislodge some of the offensive material, but not to the point of removal.
I'd like to ask your opinion about a) is it really fake as I assume, and
                                                b) how to best remove it if it is fake.

I am quite certain that I am not dealing with the green or turquoise dust you sometimes get from bronze disease - that usually comes in clusters and spots, not as an outline. The following coin illustrates best what I mean.

Thanks,
Schatz

[Bill W4]

I don't think it is fake and personally I find it attractive; but to each his own.

[Jochen]

but to each his own.

Dear Bill!

I don't know wether you know that this is not allowed to say in Germany. "Jedem das Seine" (suum cuique) was the logo over the portal of the KZ Buchenwald.

Best regards

Edit: Corrected after a PM of Curtis Clay

[Schatz]

O dear, I seem to have opened a can of worms there. Perhaps we can settle on 'de gustibus non est disputandum' which roughly covers 'suum cuique'. If I were sure that the verdigris is genuine I might find it attractive, too. But there is that lingering suspicion that it is 'dealer verdigris'. I have several Elymais drachms which have this appearance, and a lot of others have 'desert sand' as an extra. Sorry to have so little trust in some of the practices of the purveyors of coins. Perhaps I will have to live with this, genuine or not.

Schatz

[n.igma]

but to each his own.

Dear Bill!

I don't know wether you know that this is not allowed to say in Germany. "Jedem das Seine" (suum cuique) was the logo over the portal of the KZ Buchenwald.

Best regards

Edit: Corrected after a PM of Curtis Clay

Its fair to say that the issue arises from the German rendering "Jedem das Seine" and its its extremely nasty Nazi application (with its attendant holocaust association) of the phrase "to each his own", rather than the English phrase which is subject everyday use in English speaking countries without any Nazi associations or associated controversy   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedem_das_Seine  versus the English usage http://www.dictionary.com/browse/to-each-his-own

I am sure Bill W4 intended no offense in using a commonly used English phrase that is devoid of the associations of its German equivalent.  Had he used "Jedem das Seine" then it would be a different story.

That said its wise, but nearly impossible to be aware of every potential cultural sensitivity to English language usage and vernacular.

Back to the subject at hand, I consider the green patina authentic and deliberately left during the cleaning process to accentuate an otherwise flat image. Absent the contrast afforded by the green remnant patina it would be rather flat.  Is this artifice or art? I tend to the latter, but acknowledge that it is in the eye of the beholder.

[okidoki]

but to each his own.

Dear Bill!

I don't know wether you know that this is not allowed to say in Germany. "Jedem das Seine" (suum cuique) was the logo over the portal of the KZ Buchenwald.

Best regards

Edit: Corrected after a PM of Curtis Clay

Its fair to say that the issue arises from the German rendering "Jedem das Seine" and its its extremely nasty Nazi application (with its attendant holocaust association) of the phrase "to each his own", rather than the English phrase which is subject everyday use in English speaking countries without any Nazi associations or associated controversy   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedem_das_Seine  versus the English usage http://www.dictionary.com/browse/to-each-his-own

I am sure Bill W4 intended no offense in using a commonly used English phrase that is devoid of the associations of its German equivalent.  Had he used "Jedem das Seine" then it would be a different story.

That said its wise, but nearly impossible to be aware of every potential cultural sensitivity to English language usage and vernacular.

Back to the subject at hand, I consider the green patina authentic and deliberately left during the cleaning process to accentuate an otherwise flat image. Absent the contrast afforded by the green remnant patina it would be rather flat.  Is this artifice or art? I tend to the latter, but acknowledge that it is in the eye of the beholder.

+1

[areich]

I'm not sure if this isn't some kind of verdigris that formed after this coin was chemically cleaned, likely in bulk*.  But that is not to say that it is bronze disease. Anyway, whether it is that or whether it is what is left after cleaning, I think it isn't artificial and I see nothing to be gained in trying to remove it.


In recent years, many many Elymaic coins came onto the market, most of them overcleaned. It makes no sense to lovingly clean giganic hoards of coins. A couple of years ago, you could find giant junk boxes of these, with fairly nice coins in them. I bought some, thinking I would learn about them but I never did.

[Schatz]

Hello again,

incidentally, and I know I should have mentioned this, the coin in the picture is a tetradrachm, so a dealer might have spent a little more time on preparing it for a sale than he would have on a humble drachm. But if removing the verdigris turns out to be too much of an operation that might even damage the coin I will, of course, leave it the way it is. I find it interesting that responders to my post apparently do not find the patina so patently fake looking as I did initially, and I am about to reconsider my verdict to 'to be left alone'.

Thanks for your valued opinions,
Schatz

[Bill W4]

 

 

"I don't know wether you know that this is not allowed to say in Germany. "Jedem das Seine" (suum cuique) was the logo over the portal of the KZ Buchenwald."

Best regards
 
 I was not aware, though I am embarrassed to admit it.  I thought my schooling was better.  I appreciate the information.  Still like the verdigris and the owner may do as he pleases.  Actually this led to an interesting discussion with some friends concerning hand gestures that may get you into trouble in various countries.

[SC]

I agree with areich.  I have this on some late Alexandrian tetradrachms, and a few other coins, most of which also have the same chocolaty-brown overall colour.  I think it is what sometimes remains after certain chemical treatments.

Shawn