Bruttium Kroton Question

[Holding History]

Hello all,

Thanks again for all the help from my previous posts. I really appreciate the honest answers. I am now collecting Parthians

I just picked this coin up at and antique store yesterday while buying vintage military medals and the owner and I didn't know what it was. I saw Greek writing so I bought it with a couple other coins. I did some searching and found that it is Bruttium, Kroton. It is now the oldest coin in my collection.

I did a search on wildwinds and a few other databases and couldn't find this exact coin. I found some with crabs and some with harps but not one with a crab and a harp.
Does anyone have additional information on this coin?

Weight : 7.5 Grams
Diameter : 27mm


Thanks again guys! I love this Forvm.

Keith

[cicerokid]

Found this on CNG research

BRUTTIUM, Kroton. Circa 500-480 BC. AR Nomos (27mm, 7.93 g, 12h). Tripod, legs terminating in lion's feet; crab to left / Incuse tripod; lyre in relief to left. SNG ANS -; HN Italy 2088; SNG Lloyd 594; Traité I 2147. Near EF, toned. Very rare issue with lyre.

[laney]

Have you seen this?

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=TRIPOD+LYRE&view_mode=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ol=1&sort=&c=&a=&l=#9

Description

BRUTTIUM, Kroton. 500-480 BC. AR Stater (7.65 gm). Delphic tripod with lions feet, crab right / Incuse of tripod, lyre in relief. SNG.ANS.251v. HN.2087

Laney

[Jay GT4]

Great find!  It comes from very close to where my family is from.

[Enodia]

Have you seen this?

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=TRIPOD+LYRE&view_mode=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ol=1&sort=&c=&a=&l=#9

all i get from this link is...

Your search did not match any records.

~ Peter

[Jay GT4]

Try these:

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=526987

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=401738

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=365311

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=82138

[Enodia]

thanks Jay!

[JBF]

Very nice, listed as HN Italy 2087.  Rutter dates it 500-480.  In addition to the crab and the lyre, there are two serpents in the bowl of the tripod, barely visible
on yours.  What I would like to know, if anyone would venture to guess, what do the secondary symbols mean (the crab, the lyre and the serpents)?  The tripod is Apollonian, and also the work of a celator.  So the coin which is the work of a celator, also refers to the work of a celator (a tripod).  Again, nice find!

JBF

[Enodia]

What I would like to know, if anyone would venture to guess, what do the secondary symbols mean (the crab, the lyre and the serpents)?  The tripod is Apollonian, and also the work of a celator.  So the coin which is the work of a celator, also refers to the work of a celator (a tripod). 

i'm not sure what this means exactly, but the tripod is definitely a reference to Apollo, as is the lyre. the crab probably has to do with the fact that Kroton was a coastal city and therefore may represent the gifts of Poseidon, as does the shell device at Taras.
i doubt that the tripod has any connection to the minting process, as Greek coins of this period would not generally refer to such a mundane practice as a main device, especially on the greater coins (didrachms in this case). this was usually reserved for honoring the Immortal Gods (imo).

~ Peter

[JBF]

I think you mean a stater or nomos on the Achaean standard (8.0), divisible into three drachma, but a lot of the region uses didrachms of about the same weight.  The Achaean standard decreases over time, and so
this coin is of a reasonable weight.  The coins of Velia and Poseidonia (Phocaean standard) are about the same weight of this stater, and are divisible into two drachma.

There are several ways to relate the tripod to Apollo, the oracle at Delphi sat on a tripod while prophecying.  But also the Pythagoreans' favorite god was Apollo, Pythagoras moved to Kroton c. 532 BC and he (and thus later they), had a special connection to Apollo in general, and Delphi in particular.  Thus, there is more than one reason through which the coin type can be connected (by us) with Apollo and Delphi, or maybe instead, Apollo and Triopas or just Apollo in general which is why I said Apollonian,  I "vagued" it up a little, and you called me on it, which is good.  Also, Delphi also played a role in Kroton's myth and so there is that connection.

But the secondary symbols on the coins of Kroton and Metapontum fascinate me in that these coins with secondary symbols are quite early (it seems to me) compared to other Greek coins with secondary symbols.  Also you have a very well defined rim, on how many Greek coins do you have that?  Let alone Archaic coins?

But the long and the short of it is that this is a very interesting coin, congratulations on your find!

JBF
John Francisco (on) Academia.edu.

[Enodia]

I think you mean a stater or nomos on the Achaean standard (8.0), divisible into three drachma, but a lot of the region uses didrachms of about the same weight.  The Achaean standard decreases over time, and so
this coin is of a reasonable weight.  The coins of Velia and Poseidonia (Phocaean standard) are about the same weight of this stater, and are divisible into two drachma

yes, i should have been more specific and said stater. i don't like the term 'nomos', but i have a bad habit of refering to all large MG silver generically as didrachms.

i think we all get caught up in numismatic research from a purely scientific point of view, which is good for the basic data. but it is also important to keep the people themselves in context and remember that religion was very important in the ancient Greek world, and in Greek religion piety is everything. hence we rarely see humans adorning coins until the Hellenistic period.
this is why Walter Burkert is on my shelf right next to Evans, Head, etc.

thanks for the interesting post,
~ Peter

[JBF]

I agree, I don't really like the term 'nomos,' for me it has too many philosophical connotations (law, custom) which we shouldn't read into the coins,
and I doubt that the ancients did either.  But I included it because some people will use it, applying it anachronistically(?) to a coin this early.

I agree on the ancient importance of religion, in fact there is no division between religion and state and there is just beginning to become a division between
religion and culture (with the rise of philosophy).  I can't think of any Classical coins that have a human individual's bust on it.  Of course, Hellenistic coins
have individuals on them, but they are all also god-kings.  I assume the same is true with Parthian coins.
JBF