Help with an unusual Thurium bronze coin

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Altamura:

--- Quote from: PtolemAE on July 27, 2022, 01:16:52 pm ---... I'm looking forward to read Spinelli's more recent take on all this. ...
--- End quote ---
The book seems to be based on her thesis at the University of Messina. Marianna Spinelli, "La monetazione di Locri Epizefiri tra Magna Grecia, Sicilia e regni ellenistici", Messina 2017,
being published here: https://iris.unime.it/handle/11570/3105328?mode=simple

Perhaps you find something already there :).

Regards

Altamura

Altamura:
Just seen by chance: These Zeus/eagle coins are also discussed in Benedetto Carroccio, "Tra Iconografia e Storia: aquile epirote o aquile tolemaiche nelle monetazioni magnogreche?", in "Miscellanea di Studi Storici Università della Calabria" XIV, 2007:
https://www.academia.edu/433401/Tra_Iconografia_e_Storia_aquile_epirote_o_aquile_tolemaiche_nelle_monetazioni_magnogreche?email_work_card=title
Perhaps this helps :).

Regards

Altamura

PtolemAE:

--- Quote from: Altamura on July 29, 2022, 07:31:23 am ---Just seen by chance: These Zeus/eagle coins are also discussed in Benedetto Carroccio, "Tra Iconografia e Storia: aquile epirote o aquile tolemaiche nelle monetazioni magnogreche?", in "Miscellanea di Studi Storici Università della Calabria" XIV, 2007:
https://www.academia.edu/433401/Tra_Iconografia_e_Storia_aquile_epirote_o_aquile_tolemaiche_nelle_monetazioni_magnogreche?email_work_card=title
Perhaps this helps :).

Regards

Altamura

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Thanks. That would seem to discuss whether that reverse motif of eagle/thunderbolt is related to Epirus types or Ptolemaic types. Have to read it and see whether it begs the question whether Epirote types may themselves be derivative (Ptolemaic). This paper also approaches a huge range of coin types from many locations - in silver, gold, and bronze - which might obscure what is relevant to these particular Thurium and Locri bronzes.

PtolemAE

ADDED:

Upon reflection, this Carroccio paper (2007) precedes the discovery (in 2011) that Ptolemaic bronzes ca. 17.2 g were minted on Sicily in the 260s BC and imitated by Hieron II. Carroccio's attempt to resolve questions of the eagle/thunderbolt imagery's origin (Epirote vs. Ptolemaic) for the many types of Italian coins doesn't take into account actual local and ~contemporary Ptolemaic bronze coinage (with eagle/thunderbolt reverse), perhaps the most important connection to the appearance and dating of that imagery on other coins made nearby. I don't know if Carroccio's views have changed since the 2011 paper appeared. One reason these particular Thurium and Locri bronzes are interesting is their *very* close stylistic resemblance (on reverses) to some of the 'imitative Ptolemaic' bronzes made by Hieron II. That can be seen among the dozens of images that are online as part of the 2011 paper's die study.

PtolemAE

PtolemAE:

--- Quote from: Anaximander on July 27, 2022, 07:24:55 am ---Sorry to bang on about your brilliant find (a restraining order cannot be all that far away), but have a look at the SNG Cop. version of your coin's "twin" in Locri, Bruttium. Once again the lettering is unclear -it's a PDF of a bad photo of a plaster cast- but the cataloguers see ΛΟΚΡΩΝ and both the cornucopiae and PHI that you mentioned, with :Greek_Phi: moved to above the wing.

--- End quote ---

Happy to report I have found another of the Lokri coins at the National Archaeological Museum of Naples in one of their displays. Two of them actually because they have both sides of the type illustrated by different specimens, side-by-side. On the one showing its reverse the 'control' is a N, not a PHI, but in the same position as the PHI on the specimen I have. Similar to ones Spinelli has discussed in some articles (although her choice of the specific Ptolemy type she believes is closely related is likely erroneous).

It was a pleasant surprise to see these coins among the terrific numismatic collection of ancient (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, etc.) coins at the MANN just a few days ago and I was able to get several pictures. If you want to see their amazing collection of Aes Grave and hundreds of other ancient coins you have to show up on either a Saturday or Sunday morning as the collection isn't open at other times like the rest of the museum. Sadly there seems to be no catalog of this collection and it seems unlikely most collectors would even know which coins are there unless they visit themselves or know someone who has seen the collection. Maybe it has been discussed in this group before. And it seems to be suffering from some neglect with mostly nice displays but some cabinets with lights not working, etc.

The MANN is unlike any other collection of ancient artifacts (e.g. the British Museum, Paolo Orsi Museum, Oriental Institute, etc.) that I have ever seen. Many of the items found at Pompeii and Herculaneum as well as renaissance collections of royalty and others are all at the museum in Naples. So you visit Pompeii and see the walls of the buildings demolished by the eruption of Vesuvius in AD79 but their contents were long ago taken to the museum. The floors (!) of their extensive collection of Magna Graecia objects (pottery, etc.) are room after room of original mosaics taken from the excavated houses at Pompeii. You must wear shoe-covering cloth 'booties' to protect the floors!

The numismatic collection has an interesting hoard of over 1000 1st C. Roman bronze coins also found in one of the houses at Pompeii with coins that Roman collectors would love. Among them, quite a surprise, was a single Ptolemaic bronze coin - which is on display.

Sorry for the photo quality of the two Lokri coins here - the lighting was terrible and I just returned so haven't had time yet to fully color-correct the pics.

PtolemAE

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