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Author Topic: New byzantine dies  (Read 1727 times)

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Offline Emil M

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New byzantine dies
« on: June 28, 2021, 06:15:55 pm »
Yesterday at the Zeus numismatic auction were sold two byzantine coin dies. The sale of such rare things surprisingly for me, was completely unnoticed with the final price of 2200 euro for two! That's why I would like to ask you what do you think about these dies?

For me they look genuine, especially because of the style and patina. I wonder about the shape. All the others known (I know only three others) have a different shape – but they are come from the other period.

Offline Emil M

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Re: New rare byzantine dies
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2021, 06:19:12 pm »
And the second one. It looks like they match one type of coin, what is even stranger due to the low probability of find something like this

Offline Obryzum

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Re: New rare byzantine dies
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2021, 07:06:15 am »
Fascinating.  I am aware of the 6th century follis die.  Also the Romanus III histamenon dies that sold in a Rauch auction a few years ago.  This is only the third Byzantine die I can recall seeing.

Offline Simon

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Re: New rare byzantine dies
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2021, 04:53:38 pm »
Congratulations, that is a rarity you don't see. Very nice buy.
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Offline Byzantofil

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Re: New rare byzantine dies
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2021, 05:07:51 pm »
In the Zeus annotation, the dies were recorded as steel, so, in fact, it should be.

But take a closer look at them: are they steel?  The color of the metal and the type of corrosion on the dies with dots of characteristic copper green oxides clearly indicate the presence of copper.  Of course, it can be assumed that in the process of use, the steel on the working surfaces of the dies could be covered with copper upon contact with the copper blanks of coins, but why do the bodies of the dies themselves look different from what steel should look after lying in the soil ground for many hundreds years? Also I agree that the shape of dies is very strange.

So, of course, if the newly discovered stamps are considered authentic, under Leo the Wise, the mint returned to the Roman practice of making bronze stamps?

Offline SC

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Re: New rare byzantine dies
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2021, 05:54:41 pm »
There is an old adage that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

Not saying these are fake, but two dies for 2200 Euros is a steal.  Fakes abound from this part of the world.  I would subject these to intense scrutiny before I would accept them as genuine.  Don't get me wrong, I truly hope someone got lucky, but .....

If they are genuine (genuinely from that era that is) there is a good chance that they, like most known Roman dies, are actually the product of contemporary forgers.  That might also explain the choice of material.

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Offline Emil M

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Re: New rare byzantine dies
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2021, 06:52:42 pm »
Ok, guys, these dies are made of some tin bronze - 73 % Cu 25 % Sn and 2% Pb. As for me these are actually dies/hubs (?) of forgres.
I'll try to find a die match with any known follis of Leo.

Offline Emil M

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2022, 01:04:30 pm »
gents,
after 6 months, quite unexpectedly, the story has its second act.
Again, an identical pair of stamps appeared at auction at the Zeus Numismatics auction house. From the photos I can guess that the material is the same (alloy of about 73% Cu with 25 Sn and about 2% Pb).
The patina looks exactly the same.  These two pair were to be used for the production of the same coins - folles of Leo VI.
At the moment there is no doubt that these are not official dies.

What do you think about it?

my friend has put the first pair on auction roma numismatics. The second pair will be auctioned on 06/02/2022 at Zeus Numismatics.

Offline Emil M

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2022, 01:05:24 pm »
photos from 23 web auctions of Zeus

Offline Simon

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2022, 06:33:38 pm »
I think Shawns statement is good advice,

I would take them with a grain of salt.

Simon
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Offline Obryzum

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2022, 12:39:31 am »
In addition to the questionable alloy, these dies also seem a bit short.  I am trying to imagine how someone would hold the obverse die in place with the hammer coming down.  It is too short to hold it in tightly in your first.

Offline Ron C2

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2022, 07:50:21 am »
While I don't think they are authentic, ancient celators didn't hold dies in their hands. They used long tongs to grasp reverse die while the obverse was held in a plinth. It was a 2 man operation. One person holding, the other striking.
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Offline SC

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2022, 07:57:22 am »
Flans were placed with tongs, but dies were almost certainly held by hand.  There are contemporary images of such practices.

In many cases they were a three man operation - a person to place and remove the flan/coin, a person to hold the upper die and a hammer wielder.

I will try to dig out the references when I have more time.

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Offline Serendipity

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2022, 09:44:52 am »
Yes, these Byzantine dies are a rare find indeed! I was really shocked when I saw a past Forum post about some Byzantine dies which were sold at auction. I almost had a heart attack! They seemed like a perfect die match for the scarce Romanus III histamenon that I had recently acquired!

Offline Serendipity

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Re: New rare byzantine dies
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2022, 09:55:47 am »
Quote from: Obryzum on July 01, 2021, 07:06:15 am
Fascinating.  I am aware of the 6th century follis die.  Also the Romanus III histamenon dies that sold in a Rauch auction a few years ago.  This is only the third Byzantine die I can recall seeing.

Oh, yes, you are the member that drew my attention to that remarkable past Forum post about the Rauch auction after commenting on one of my posts about a Romanus III histamenon that I had recently acquired. It would be astounding, of course, if my histamenon was struck from those same ancient dies almost a thousand years ago.

Offline Ron C2

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2022, 06:38:02 pm »
Hi Sean,

The best scholarly reference I found on the subject is the Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society
Fifth Series, Vol. 2 (1922), pp. 1-42, vii (44 pages).  It's on JSTOR if curious.

It gets most interesting on the subject at page 26, where it discusses ancient coins showing the minting process, including the anvil, tongs and hammer.

There is a bronze tessera of vienna from around 89BC that shows a 3 man operation with one man striking, another holding the die and a third placing the flan. see page 28.  The tessera is not depicted on a plate, I've never seen it, and I always just assumed he was holding it with tongs.

there is also the House of Vetti fresco in Pompeii that MAY depict coining (or possibly jewelry making - there is debate).  In this mural, the work is done by cupids (how lovely!) and one is holding an object that could be either a reverse die or a jewellery object (open for debate) with tongs that is being struck by a cupid wielding hammer.  See the leftmost motif here:



in the case of the cupids - 2 people and not 3.

There may be other images, these are the ones I'm familiar with.  Are we sure there is a definitive answer?
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Offline Byzantofil

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2022, 02:11:07 am »
Must note, that the new bronze die is not for the Leo VI follis, but for the anonymous follis Class 2 reverse (Jesus Christ King of Kings).  I flipped and mirrored the image. Take a look:

Offline SC

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2022, 11:18:02 am »
The best sources I know of currently on the production question include:

Woytek, Bernhard E. System and Product in Roman Mints from the Late Republic to the High Principate: Some Current Problems.

Ramskold, Lars.  Aborted Production and Selective Coin Withdrawal: a Die Study of the AE Coinage of Constantinopolis in AD 326.

Hu, Di.  Experimental Roman Minting.

De Callatay, F.  Calculating ancient coin production: seeking a balance.

I believe the Ramskold shows the tessera.  Despite some ambiguity in related imagery the overall consensus seems to be that the tongs were mainly used for the planchet.

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Offline Ron C2

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2022, 01:02:33 pm »
Thanks Shawn, that was a great lead - first time I had seen the tessera, pictured here:



Now that said, Woytek's description is interesting:

Quote
As interpreted by Woytek (2012), the person to the right is a signator, holding the hammer die over the anvil, the middle person is a  suppostor, positioning the blanks, and to the left is the malliator, striking with the hammer.

If you look at the image, the right most person is clearly holding the hammer die attached to a long rod that protrudes out the left of the bodice, suggesting a rod or tongs to hold the die.  Woytek didn't say HOW the die was being held and certainly did not say it was hand held. To me, the image clearly shows a long implement attached to the upper die.  The middle person's hands are obscured so impossible to say how the planchet is being placed, though I have read that some planchets were possibly struck cold.  The middle person is most definitely the suppostor, given the pile of planchets at their feet.

Not that I'm trying to be argumentative here, this is a no-oft discussed topic, and one I'm finding most interesting and it would seem Woytek interprets the tessera much as I interpreted the pompeii fresco.
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Offline Kevin D

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2022, 04:36:07 pm »
I haven't done any research on the tong/hammer/die question, but logic indicates to me that if the die was hand held, and thousands upon thousands of strikings were being performed, a serious injury would eventually occur (and reoccur). It seems that something other than a human hand would need to be used to hold the die (especially if it were my job).

Offline PMah

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2022, 06:25:09 pm »
In my youth, I had to split a lot of firewood, sometimes with another guy, and the number of near-misses was pretty high.  I am not a proponent of the long-handled hammer or long-stroke suppositions.  I know a blacksmith and he rarely raises the hammer more than 8 to 12 inches above the surface, working iron and steel, which is much harder than the coinage metals.  A serious injury in ancient times would at least be job-ending and possibly life-ending.  So I doubt the crews swung overhead towards a buddy.
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Offline Obryzum

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2022, 08:15:02 pm »
On the hand/tongs question: I had presumed that the die would need to be hand-held based on Fueg's calculation of 4 seconds to strike a histamenon (and he cites Carter & Nord for the proposition that it took 3 second to strike Republican Denarius under Crespusius).  I just cannot imagine a fast operation using tongs.

Having said that, if you think about the amount of force that would be needed to strike bronze coins, it would be inconceivable to use a hand-held die.

Starting with the gold: Fueg says that it takes ~32 joules to strike a Basil I solidus (typically 18-19mm), ~55 joules to strike a Theodora histamenon (24-25 mm, 78% gold), and ~80 joules to strike a Michael VII histamenon (27-28 mm, 62% gold).  Dropping 1.2kg from a height of 1m is equivalent to about 10 joules.   

I do not have the numbers for large flan bronze coins, but it would seem they would need to be much, much higher.

Offline SC

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2022, 09:37:50 pm »
An interesting discussion.  Relates to several areas I have been thinking a lot about recently.

To summarize so far:

- There is contemporary Roman iconographic evidence that "tongs" were used to hold the upper die at least some of the time.

- It would be safer for the mint workers to use "tongs" as that would avoid the chance of a missed blow or glancing blow breaking the die wilder's arm or hand.  Though it would add another kind of danger, albeit one possibly less likely and less disastrous, that the die wielder looses grip of the die and/or the tong from the hammer blow - especially if the die was not held each time at its balance point.

- It would be faster to not use tongs.

Now to throw in a couple of ideas for discussion.

The reason I put tongs in quotes the first two times and not the other times is as follows.  What if what we are seeing is not regular tongs but something that could be fixed more firmly to the upper die?  Either tongs that could be locked into a closed position or a long handle with a sleeve on the end that fit around the die.  Either would be easy for the Romans to make.  Either of these would look like tongs in an image - for example the tessera shows only a single line.  But more importantly, either would serve to protect the die wielder while also saving on time and reducing the chance of the die breaking loose from the tong wielder's grip.  Unlike with the blanks, the tongs don't have to release grip on the die during the entire striking operation.

I think that it is also important to remember hinged dies, of which there is at least one example in evidence (though I can't recall if it was for genuine coins or a forger's product).  These would also eliminate this issue.  Once the hinged die was "closed" - that is the upper die placed over the blank - there was no need for anyone to hold it during the hammer blow.  When these were used in slightly more modern times they had a spring mechanism in them which prevented the bounce strike.

Finally, I have been collecting stats about the force required to strike various sizes of coins and the force that can be created by various striking means.  I will post some when I get a bit more time.  My main line of inquiry is about how many options really existed to strike large AE coins like the sestertius.  Especially given that they required much more force but show far fewer examples of mis-strikes than are found on much smaller AE coins.

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Offline Simon

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Re: New byzantine dies
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2022, 09:57:00 pm »


Finally, I have been collecting stats about the force required to strike various sizes of coins and the force that can be created by various striking means.  I will post some when I get a bit more time.  My main line of inquiry is about how many options really existed to strike large AE coins like the sestertius.  Especially given that they required much more force but show far fewer examples of mis-strikes than are found on much smaller AE coins.

SC

I always assumed the better the worker the higher the denomination, also quality controll. Nothing is to say these issues did not occur but they did not leave the mint in that condition.
How often do you see gold in poor conditions?

I cannot argue the other issues but i think these other factors can not be applied to the question.

This is an interesting disscusion, i had never put alot of thought into the dies.
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