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Author Topic: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge  (Read 903 times)

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Offline cicerokid

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Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« on: April 29, 2022, 05:57:08 am »
A few of you might know I have been pursuing the NEW STYLE coins of the Poggio Pincenze hoard in the Chieti Museum archaeologica  . I have contacted museum directors, and the Italian embassy for help when my pursuits hit Stoney ground..

Today marks a 2 year anniversary of failure. This essentially unpublished hoard in detail remains in the hands of the ignorant, bureaucratic place holders of which museums abound. It is the power and privilege which they seek not the items. This is actually common, look at the average coin collector. They love the actual collecting and the possession, maybe a little light bragging, mine is better, larger, cleaner, MS 65 than yours type of thing. Knowledge printed on a label on a plastic tomb is good enough, real research is not wanted.

To cap it all the unending nonsense of provenance is the latest pointless pursuit to take the place of genuine numismatical knowledge, where on coin sites it seems to be the be all and end all of bragging rights! So that is why the lack of interest of museums in their items should come as no surprise, it's the bragging rights curators and directors are interested in   not knowledge that is not sexy
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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2022, 06:03:14 am »
The secret coins in question. This hoard discovered 70 years ago and rescued from plunderers is now in the hands of ignorant and can't care less professionals . Only mentioned briefly by numismatists I have tried to fathom the NEW STYLES only to be rejected. What is the point?

The interesting thing about the photo is that the coins appear to be in a sort of chronological order so somebody put some effort into it but no more. I wonder where they placed 2 Ears of Corn? I would dearly love to know that is my main pursuit, but hey ho , experts eh!
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Offline Molinari

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2022, 04:23:04 pm »
Long live private collecting!

Offline n.igma

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2022, 08:08:55 pm »
What you have experienced is the economic and commercial reality of the situation in which museums find themselves. They are no longer purely institutions focussed on learning and research, repositories of knowledge if you like. Increasingly they are viewed as little more than store houses of material articles and specimens, and places of public entertainment, the cost of which has to be defrayed in the face of an increasing absence of government largesse.

As a result, museums worldwide are being run on what is largely a user pays model. Curatorial staff are engaged increasingly in a multitude of activities that are essentially focussed on generating revenue. In this respect, broad-based public (not individual) engagement is a key priority in the cost recovery process. Result: addressing the inquiries of an independent researcher (a non-revenue generating activity) is well down the priority list. The collections are open to study visitation by independent researchers, but beyond this, with few exceptions the assistance role ends there. 

The more enlightened and well-endowed museums are making their numismatic collections online, which is a costly and labour-intensive endeavour that greatly benefits the independent researcher, so I think it is a little churlish to criticise these institutions for their unresponsiveness to an individual inquiry. In many cases, you may find they don’t even have suitably qualified numismatic staff to understand, let alone address your inquiry, as cost pressures drive staff reductions in fields such as numismatics that fall outside of topical and popular fields of research and public interest.

Sadly, this this is the commercial reality of museums in the modern era. The days of individual scholarly knowledge driven correspondence exchange with such institutions are well and truly in the past. The wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth on this point will not bring it back.

Best to plan a holiday, and visit the museum in question to access the collection.

P.S.  Many, if not most museums and their curatorial staff are also engaged as a key component in the administration of cultural heritage laws (eg the PAS in Britain), MOU's and the like as a primary delivery for their Government funding. So don't forget the role of MOU's in this!

All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Dominic T

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2022, 08:50:26 pm »
I remember you wrote about your attempt to contact the museum administrators in 2018…
Just by curiosity, did someone ever replied to you ?
DT

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2022, 04:33:43 am »
Dominic T and the others,
Hello and thanks for the replies.

Yes I did hear from  the museum but it was a huge faff and faddle with permissions and  code numbers (!) and she had to report to others with more unfathomable online forms and other stuff, where you know that, in the end, nothing was going to happen. It seems she got more bosses or the department got transferred etc and came under the supervision of 2 young archaeologists!  The e-mail contact information is not recognised and when I wrote to one of the archaeological duo I got no response. This is typical of Italy, no money earthquake damage not rebuilt but plenty of staff doing nothing and more chiefs than Indians. I cannot see where the complaints against private collectors come from when the so-called professionals are so useless. The BM once replied that they were too busy to respond in anyway to me but I was welcome to come down and peruse their books! However not too busy OXBRIDGE were the soul of courtesy and then late Dr Buttrey along with Popov and others were most helpful. However I did get pitched out of a museum in Turkey for being there (yes) at the wrong! time and are most unhelpful, like Italy everything is too much of a problem. That hoard of Athenian Dekadrachms repatriated from looters sits in Antalya museum un studied and un cared for ( try to find a write up, I dare you)!

Museums are generally prisons of ignorance only home to state place holders. I wrote my latest disappointment up on academia.edu called "The pointless pursuit of Numismatical knowledge" it seems to be the 2nd most popular thing I have ever wrote after my diatribe against the BM!

A perusal of their photograph shows a coin a coin on the bottom row that I cannot recognise. It doesn't seem to me to be 2 Ears of Corn and the symbol is unclear to me. Now if it yet a NEW New Style that would be a great find, if it is a another post Sullan coin but possibly after c83BC than the deposition of the hoard comes into doubt. If it is 2 Ears of Corn then it would appear to be a new reverse or more. Maybe we will never know and eventually the coin will put into a Coke machine by the curatorial staff to welcome another pen pusher to the fold .

BTW My academia.edu rant has attracted a lot of views even from Russia, but mainly from Europe including Rome, and only one from the USA.

I add a blow up of the coin in question and a 2 Ears of Corn. Isn't it a pity that the wrong institution has a most intriguing hoard just sitting there as an exhibit only after 70 years! Things move fast in Italy!

John Nisbet
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Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2022, 04:18:34 pm »
Hi folks,

n.igma explained the situation very well.

My own experience validates that. About 20-25 years ago, I called the ANS to order a few SNG ANS reference books from them. The man I spoke to on the phone was extremely unknowledgeable and utterly confused. He didn't know what I was referring to, and all I was trying to do was order books from them. He didn't have a clue.

That experience left me confused. It was also one of the reasons why I never joined the ANS.

In the recent past, I wrote about this experience here in Forum. Forum members explained to me that the person who answered the phone that day 20-25 years ago may have been a janitor. If that is true, it may explain many things.

Everything that has been explained here in this topic gives more credence to allowing private collectors to own ancient coins. They seem to be conducting much more research than museums. Nick is certainly one of those individuals, regarding his thorough an comprehensive work pertaining to man-faced bull coins.

Meepzorp

Offline n.igma

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2022, 07:47:18 pm »
A nice day tour that would allow you to network with those in the know at Chieti : https://lifeinabruzzo.com/pop-up-abruzzo-hands-on-heritage-archaeology/

It also highlights the role and I dare say the priority of the museum on tourism. I doubt that such a small local museum has any numismatic curatorial staff and that may be the source of your problem.

But on a positive note I suggest that your research provides a great reason to plan a vacation research trip to Abruzzo!
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2022, 11:19:16 pm »
Dear John and Board,

Huh.  The guy from the US who viewed your note on Academia.edu must have been me.  What a small world.

I have been confronted with very similar research obstacles in the past, but mostly overcame them by consistently tackling the problems from different angles until a light appeared.  I highly suggest contacting a numismatic organization in Italy for their advice and to also ask around if someone could possibly visit the museum as your representative, if only to take better photos of the exhibit as a tourist (if allowed, of course).

Hope some of this helps at least a tad.

       
Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2022, 02:56:08 am »
You don't need a numismatic  expert to open a case take photographs and send to me! I would gladly shout the good name of the museum, but it was not to be. I have still emails from the museum going on about permissions, bosses code numbers required, beau acracy  and so on until the new bosses arrived! And then the false email address and silence! A 5 minute job seemed to require a shed load of people and paperwork all to keep a lot of people in pointless jobs with no result. Some respondent on academia.edu said I should contact Adele Campanelli, she is the Poggio Picenze museum expert but I don't think so she seems to be a politco who innocently got mixed up in some kind of mafia fraud. It seems there was according to my academia informant an exhibition on the Poggio Picenze hoard but I be buggered if I can find anything about it. Italy probably doesn't use the www to advertise this exhibition in L'Aquilla some time ago.. Not mentioned on FAC,CT, collectors world etc, it's like it never happened and no body took notice of it. Does any one here have the ability to shed light on Adele Campanelli and this so-called exhibition. I think it was something they did to put on the CV if somebody asked what are they doing for their wages!
What an incompetent mess of something oh so simple.  I have looked up go to London, fly tp Pescara from London City Airport, get taxi to museum take crap blurry photographs get booted out for not having permissions and arrested by the local fuzz and my digital camera film exposed!  I can see it now. It nearly happened in Turkey and Crete!
Bloody museums, it's not the actual brickwork it's the people, more dead than Pete Marsh. No peeps don't make excuses for them they are plainly sh.. . Now i shall see if  the Italians who viewed my  academia rant have left any kind messages of help & hope!

NO THEY HAVEN'T!   Lots and lots of views from all over the place but nothing concrete. That's the problem all skirt and no knickers ( English expression) meaning all show but nothing underneath. Most knowledge is nano or pico thin!
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Offline Molinari

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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2022, 08:50:50 am »
my Italian is non existent, but it appears she had some responsibility for Museo Archaeolgica Chieti so this would be the wrong person to contact, because by her leadership all things fail. I suggest a very little was made into a lot. I also consider her role more political and that's why she was embroiled in that mafia fraud, she was a target?

Have you seen mine latest on academia about who started the NewStyle and why? See The Athens NewStyle problem today!
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2022, 10:35:45 am »
First off, I've written several replies to this thread and then thought better of it. Maybe this one will stick.

I think it's common knowledge that Italy is a bureaucratic state. As such, if it is not in your job description to do something, you're not going to do it.  It's how it has been for decades and you're not going to change it.  As an example: I went in to pay a parking ticket on a Wednesday, only to be told I had to come back on Thursday.  They don't take payments for parking tickets on Wednesday.  I went back Thursday to find the same woman at the same service window accept my payment.  Wednesday is just not the day they will help you. Why?  Who knows, just accept it and move on.

Here's my take on your situation:

1. Don't let the "Nazionale" in the name fool you, the Chieti is a small museum.  There's probably a hand full of people that work there on a full time basis, including security guards and ticket takers.  I would guess none of them speak English well.  I've been in some museums in Italy where after paying to get in, I haven't seen a soul.

2. Perhaps you've forgotten that Italy has been completely closed down because of Covid.  Museums have been empty. Two years is not a long time considering what has happened here. 

3.  I've taken pictures in "No photo" museums before, including the Vatican museum.  All they've told me is "No pictures" and you move on (and keep your pics).  From your posts here on Forum and by your own admission that you've been "thrown out" suggests you're confrontational. I mean, who get's thrown out of a museum?  As you were told in previous posts from several years ago, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar."


4. Don't take this one personally, but they may be asking "Who are you?"  Why should they take a picture for some random guy who asks for it?  I wouldn't presume any museum would fulfill a request for a picture from an email.  Simply having an academia.edu account means nothing.  Even if they did google your name (which I highly doubt) they would have come across your views about museums and the staff.  After reading your "paper" and this thread, I wouldn't be inclined to send you pictures either.

If you want the pictures, get on a plane.  Enjoy some great food and wine. Go to the museum.  Be nice to the staff and get your pictures. 

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2022, 10:57:02 am »
Thanks, but who am I ? Well I did use my credentials from the University of Warwick. Now I'm retired. I'm only confrontational when 5min jobs take 2 years and still don't get done. There is  a very famous Roman statue in the Chieti museum that attracts attention-look it up. Apparently there was an exhibition on the Poggio Picenze hoard a couple of years ago, but I cannot find anything about it. No mentions on the www, FAC, CT, collectors world etc, how on earth does Italy survive? Probably the person in charge never heard of publicity. I have written another short article on the NewStyle how it appears to be more likely a Roman financial tool to control and undermine the independent mints of Asia Minor, the Athens stephanophores displaced the others and Rome controlled Athens. So Rome started them and finished them. And maybe the 70 year old Poggio Picenze hoard might hold the key to immediate  post Sullan issues. Maybe cos they can't be bothered to get off their feathered arses to take a series of photographs maybe we will never know. But maybe London to the local airport and a quick descent on their doors with a camera might be the only way! But really don't make excuses for them they are a bunch of self important place holders who apparently don't do anything. The only other contact might be the boss Adele Campanelli who seems to be a political place holder who has attracted Mafia attention! Oh well will I last the course, I'm not a seriously well man!
I do hate pointless place holders.arghhhh!
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2022, 11:20:52 am »
Of course I'm familiar with th Capestrano warrior sculpture.  I do some reenactment.

The fall back for most Italian bureaucrats is to say "No".  Nobody wants to be responsible for saying "Yes" because that means more work.  The challenge is to find the person who will say "Yes".  Once you find that person, things move quickly.  It's easier for them to say yes when they have a personal relationship with you.  So go make some friends in Abruzzo ;)

Offline ickster

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2022, 06:35:07 pm »
I agree with Jay's last couple of lines. I have found there's about 1 in 10 people in any given organization who do 80% of the work. This will be the person who responds in a timely manner and actually knows what they are talking about. The key is to find these people. It can be as hard as finding that mint condition Eid Mar we all want, but almost as rewarding once you find them. My method is to contact the organization in the last hour of business, as these people are usually the ones with the ethics to still be at work.

It holds true in almost any organization in any country. It's even more true in government bureaucracies.

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Forget MOU's, Museums and the curse of knowledge
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2022, 04:35:04 am »
That is a more wing and a prayer method.

I have written 2 articles in the past week on NEWSTYLES on academia.edu both criticising Museo Archaeolgica Chieti for its ignorant and deliberate obstructive, ignoring of my attempts to access the Poggio Picenze hoard IGCH for research. The first called "The pointless pursuit of Numismatical knowledge-an update on the Poggio Pincenze Hoard IGCH 2056" has had over 100 views on academia.edu and a top 3% article. the 2nd " The NewStyle Athens problem" has had 20 views.
I have had some comments but one is very promising from an Italian guy who wants to study the hoard.

Why don't you log into academia.edu and read them. This pointless "find the right staff member" approach will never work, well I've tried the curators, directors and even the Italian Embassy in London. Silence.

If you got a late LRB there are plenty who would like to comment give you a RIC number and all that but since practically all the people involved in NEWSTYLES are dead! The insoluble problem of the NEWSTYLES can be cracked if museums get off their lazy butts!

Try some original research yourself! Most coin sites are self appreciation sites garnering " Nice Coin" responses. The over appreciation of Mass Classic Owls is a case in point, a full crest etc does not tell you anything new, the composition of the hoards can? So a good example out of tens of thousands is practically pointless, don't you agree?
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