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Identification Help / Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Last post by djmacdo on Today at 07:52:44 am »
I cannot even imagine getting people to agree to the various criteria!
Identification Help / Re: Two (ancient?) coins
« Last post by djmacdo on Today at 07:49:59 am »
Modern fantasy casts--worthless.
Indeed, these imitations are quite fascinating :).

Meanwhile there is also a bit of literature about it available.

In Ilya Prokopov, "Imitations of Bronze Coins in Thracia during the Ist century B.C.", in: Proceedings of the XII Internationaler Numismatischer Kongress, Berlin 1997, Berlin 2000, S. 369-377:
he gives an overview of these imitative coinage and shows examples of quite a lot of overstrikes on different undertypes.
Prokopov dates these coins between 168 BC and the end of the first century BC. About the origin he writes "Most probably, the producers and users of the imitations were the Celtic tribes of the Bastarni."

A recent article by Prokopov is "Imitations of bronze coins of the "Strimon / trident" type found in Pazardzhik" from 2021:
(in Bulgarian with English summary). Here he dates "from the period after 168 and before 27 BC." and places the origin "along the Middle Struma river".

At the page of Prokopov you find even some more articles about these imitations, but you have to search a bit. Prokopov really wrote quite a lot of papers :):


Jakieś to dziwne. Może w źródle chodziło o to, że arcybiskup dał te 200 solidów "lekką ręką" (czy jakiś podobny frazeologizm) i był to podziw dla jego hojności a nie dla siły.

Wygląda na to, że już tekst źródłowy był zepsuty, ale ciężko mi to dokładnie zweryfikować przy mojej marnej znajomości łaciny, a tu jeszcze ona na dodatek dość mocno średniowieczna. Jeśli tak, to zawiodła krytyka tegoż źródła.

Odpowiednia część ustępu 167 "Liber Pontificalis Ecclesiae Ravennatis" Angelusa z Rawenny brzmi następująco:

"Igitur talis fuit in suo corpore, ut dixi, vastus, ut praedictis 200 aureos, quos ego ei in gemella porrexi, in sola cunclusit laeva; et ammirati sunt proceres istius Melisenses* urbis una cum sacerdotibus haec videntibus." (*.html#XLVI)

co mądrzy ludzie z The Catholic University of America przetłumaczyli w wydaniu z 2004 na

"He was so huge in his body, as I said, that the said two hundred soldi, which I gave him in both my hands, he held in his left hand alone; and the Ravennate leaders of this city, together with the priest, were amazed at seeing this"


Przez chwilę myślałem, że może autor może mówi o kwocie wypłaconej w jakimś ekwiwalencie (np. w srebrze, miedzi?), ale nie, zdanie wcześniej (ten sam ustęp 167) czytamy:

"Iste monasterium sanctae Mariae qui vocatur Ad Blachernas ad Andream​ largivit presbiterum, eratque adhuc puer; et accepit ab eo praedictus pontifex solidos aureos 200 pro utilitate suae ecclesiae, et fecit exinde amulam auream, adhibens plus aurum, in similitudinem coculam marinam, et est ad utilitatem crismae usque in praesentem diem.", w angielskim tłumaczeniu "He gave the monasterium of St. Mary which is called ad Blachernae to the Priest Andrew, who was still a boy; and the sais bishop recieved from him two hundred gold soldi for the use of his church; and he made from it a small liturgical vase, using more gold, in the shape of a seashell, and it is used for the chrism up to the present day."

Mamy więc złote monety, do których biskup musiał jeszcze dołożyć kruszcu, żeby zlecić wykonanie naczynia. Nawet jeśli mamy do czynienia z większym naczyniem liturgicznym używanym do przechowywania olejów świętych w czasie Mszy Krzyżma (załóżmy że te są podobnych wymiarów jak te z IX wieku):

to i tak 1,5-2 kg (zakładając 50-100% uzupełnienie z kasy biskupa) złota w zupełności wystarcza do wykonania takowego.

Poza tym nie ma możliwości, żeby Angelus nie miał pojęcia, o jakich jednostkach pieniężnych jest mowa - jego kronika jest niemal współczesna wzmiankowanemu arcybiskupowi Marcinowi (pon. 801-818), po nim opisuje jeszcze tylko jednego metropolitę Rawenny.

* Melisenses/Meliseńczycy to nazwa mieszkańców Rawenny, czy ktoś poza Angelusem ją stosował - nie mam pojęcia.
Identification Help / Re: Two (ancient?) coins
« Last post by Andreas O on Today at 05:47:11 am »
Identification Help / Two (ancient?) coins
« Last post by Andreas O on Today at 05:43:15 am »
Does anybody know what these coins are and what are they worth?
Thanks. I wasn't thinking there was any historical problem; I just had no idea how long these coins stayed in circulation, so that it would still be around to get plundered late in the century.
On to the next mystery.
Identification Help / Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Last post by Gianluca G on Today at 04:57:58 am »
You nailed it, Shawn. The NGC grading thing, in addition to being a profit center for them, is an attempt to move ancient coins into the realm of modern coins where grade is just insanely overrated, in my opinion (what little I know about the stamp world is also obsessed with grade). I do not like this trend at all for ancients and the two NCG encapsulated ancient coins I have bought I have broken out of their little prisons. LOL. Doing so probably reduced their value, but I don't care. I did keep the tag, however.


In fact, I have been thinking about this reasoning for a long time. A different gradation scale should be taken into consideration for each type and period. It is unthinkable that the gradation relating to a modern coin can be associated with that of an ancient coin. Do you know if there is an exclusive specific gradation for ancient coins that considers the type and age and which is not associated with the standard gradation of modern coins? A website, a tab, a catalog, a different way of being able to carry out a tutorial, so that those who are approaching ancient coins do not have to submit to the misleading gradations of modern coins that have nothing to do with the more detailed and particular evaluation that it can be referred to an ancient coin such as the Roman one. It seems rather strange to me that no one has ever thought of contemplating a specific tab and a different evaluation criterion as regards the gradation of an ancient coin compared to the gradations of modern ones.
Forum numizmatyki antycznej po polsku / Re: Licinius I Trewir
« Last post by Waldemar S on Today at 01:51:43 am »
Może i dobrze że umknęła   ::), ale zagadkę przez to ciężej rozwikłać  ???. Też coś próbowałem wyciągnąć z tego zdjęcia , ale osiągnąłem tylko tyle że tam nie ma tego co byśmy się spodziewali , tak na awersie jak i na rewersie  ? , na rewersie właściwie to tylko IOVI się zgadza , a dalej jak by było CONSIL VSTIA N   ???.
Awers to dalej niewiadoma , ale ciężko tam wkomponować IMP LICI NIVS AVG ?
Ancient Coin Forum / Re: Some new online resources I'm building
« Last post by STEVEN M1 on Today at 01:32:31 am »
Hi Chris, thank you - really thank you - for that. 

For me, the whole catalog digitization, auction database and online link's useful, but is actually just several years of prelude to what I really want, which is the provenance database. That part is just getting off the ground. It's early stages, but with a few of the older sales entered (3500 lots or so), there's now enough to show people and get some feedback. Is it useful yet? Maybe, maybe not. With so few sales entered, you'd have to be really lucky to find a missing pedigree from a coin in hand today. But as more auctions get added the chances will get better. The direction is good. And it's still fun to play around.

I do discover missing pedigrees all the time between the coins already in the database. It's quite easy - visually - once the coins are weight-ordered. For example, many coins in Pozzi will show up again in another Naville sale soon after, but the Pozzi provenance is never mentioned. So I'll record those as well and so build up a record of where the coins have been seen...the Provenance Chains which are shown on the website. That's fun too. I think I have almost 80 new cases so far out of these 3500 records.

The bad news is how long it will take to build this database. For a single catalog with a couple hundred Italy/Sicily lots, it's at least a week of spare time work to do the image extraction from scans plus all the data entry. At that rate it's going to be 2-3 years to get up to the likely 25,000 or so records I think will constitute a reasonable Italy/Sicily database.

Gallica BnF, Heidelberg and archive are incredibly useful. I can't say it enough.  I keep looking for a similar resource that covers the Italian houses but so far little luck (gallica has a few Rattos).  Perhaps you know of one? 

Published collections I do buy and digitize as well (de Nanteuil, Locker Lampson, Lucien Hirsch etc), but mostly auction catalogs. Jameson I don't have, but it's online so I can refer to that for now. I've been recently getting into and buying the SNGs which I'd not paid much attention to, until recently. They are amazing sources of provenance information.

Well, thank you again Chris. Let's keep talking, and if you have feedback - good or bad - please let me know. I want those resources to get better.


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