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Author Topic: Are these egyptian scarabs genuine?  (Read 2110 times)

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chinechi

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Are these egyptian scarabs genuine?
« on: April 21, 2013, 09:33:40 am »
1.Scarab:length 21mm
2.Plaque:length 19mm

Offline Russ

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Re: Are these egyptian scarabs genuine?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 12:10:28 pm »
Hi Chinechi,

     From what I can see from your photos, these items look real, but I doubt they belong to the 18th Dynasty.

     I would date them to the reign of Khmeny, a 25th - 26th Dynasty vassal who also used the name Men-Kheper-Ra. For examples of his scarabs & plaques, see:
1.  Fraser, George. A Catalogue of the Scarabs Belonging to George Fraser. London: Quaritch, 1900: page 53, Number 451, Plate XV.
2.  Petrie, W.M. Flinders. Scarabs and Cylinders with Names. London, 1917: Page 32, Plate LIII, Numbers 20 to 23. Petrie wrote "Of all the vassal chiefs Men-her-ra has left most remains; but he always took a subordinate place in relation to Men-kheper-ra Khmeny. The latter king is well authenticated by the stele of him and his daughter (Student's History, iii, 293); and the indications point to his having ruled in Upper Egypt, probably at Hermopolis. Thus the way would be clear for Men-her-ra to be a Delta vassal, and both of them to be under the overlordship of the Ethiopians... There is a very curious expression on 25.C.22,23, "Thou becomest with a cartouche," suggesting that he was then aspiring to take a cartouche like a full king; and on his other scarabs the name is in a cartouche. He appears with full royal titles on a plaque of this age in the British Museum (Cat. 1484)."
3.  Matouk, Fouad. Corpus du Scarabee Egyptien, Tome Premier, Les Scarabees Royaux. Academie Libanaise, Beyrout, Not dated, circa 1972: Page 84, and page 213, Numbers 445 to 447.
4.  There is a vaguely similar scarab and possibly others, in the pages of the Golenischev Album(Vladimir Golenishchev 1856-1947) . He was a famous Russian Egyptologist who had a great collection. He photographed his scarabs and sent copies of the photos to other scholars. If you have access to it, you may find more.
5.  Petrie, W.M.F. Historical Scarabs, London, 1889: page 58, Numbers 1842, 43, 44 and 46. In this book he called Khmeny "Meni-Ra".
     I hope this helps.
Russ

chinechi

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Re: Are these egyptian scarabs genuine?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 04:43:32 am »
Thanks for your help Russ,you are so kind.
Can you help me translate the first scarab with the prenomen cartouche of Thutmose III?

Offline Russ

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Re: Are these egyptian scarabs genuine?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 10:19:56 am »
Hi Chinechi,

     The scarabs of Thutmose III are problematic in that many scarabs bearing the pre-nomen "Men-Khepe-Ra" in a cartouche were made long after the death of Thutmose III. This happened for several reasons:
1.  Thutmose III was able to "overthrow" Hatshepsut and Senmut with the aid of the Amen-Ra priesthood and he spent the rest of his long reign (he died about 90 years old) thanking them with very generous gifts and they did all they could to repay his generosity. It became a "mutual admiration society."
2.  Thutmose III became famous for his piety and his cartouche became a symbol of piety and eventually acquired amuletic properties.
3.  He built a temple (one of many) called "Men-Khepe-Ra, is Glorious - in - Monuments" and 650 years later, during the reign of Takelot I, this temple was still going. What better way to thank him than by issuing scarabs with his cartouche in memory of his generosity. This is my idea, it has not been proved or refuted by archaeological evidence.
4.  Thutmose III is often called the "Napoleon" of ancient Egypt. He embarked on 21 military campaigns, mostly to the Levant, and never lost a battle. He built a vast navy that rued the eastern Mediterranean. Later rulers of ancient Egypt wanted to be associated with his military abilities so they took the name, pronomen, "Men-Kheper-Ra".
     Is all this confusing? Yes, it is!
     A massive volume has been published to clarify many of the problems associated with "Men-Kheper-Ra" scarabs, see  Jaeger, Bertrand.    Essai de Classification et Dation des Scarabées Menkhéperrê,    prix de la Confédération Internationale des Négociants en Œuvres D’Art 1979. Orbis Biblicus et Oritentalis, Series Archaeologica 2. Fribourg/Göttingen: Éditions Universitaires/Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1982.

     Your inscription.
     A scarab presents a very small area upon which to write an inscription, so artistic license was employed. Quite often verbs and determinatives were omitted; abbreviations were created that make no sense, today; and idiomatic expressions (often local) were used - the meaning of which we will never understand. It is amazing philologists have been able to decipher as much as they have. Even so, translations made a century ago are often considered unacceptable by today's standards. When you look at inscriptions on scarabs - for the most part - throw grammar out the window.
     Traditionally, the pre-nomen of a king was preceded by a sedge plant and wasp, the suten net; it is missing on most acarabs and missing on yours but it is understood to mean "Lord of the Two Lands". The top three hieroglyphs and one of the feathers mean "Amen-Ra". A hoe, which is missing and the remaining feather would mean "beloved of"; and the bowl would mean "lord". Thus the inscription might read "Men-Khepe-Ra, lord of the two lands, beloved of the lord, Amen-Ra"
    I'm no philologist; perhaps, there is some one here on the Forum who knows more about ancient Egyptian language than I do.

     Since "Men-Khepe-Ra" in a or out of a cartouche is the name of more than one ancient Egyptian ruler, only use the name of Thutmose III, when you are sure the item dates to his reign - it helps to avoid confusion.

     I hope this helps.

Russ

chinechi

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Re: Are these egyptian scarabs genuine?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 12:24:29 pm »
Hi Russ:
The first i want to say thanks for your  wonderful and detailed explanation about these scarab,i had learn so much from you.I had see two scarabs from the internet shop and i want to buy .There are few informations about them except the size,seller told they were  fond in Palestine . By the look of the photo,i think they are real and belong to the Hyksos  period,but i am not sure,i want to know what about your opinions ,there are photos:

Offline Russ

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Re: Are these egyptian scarabs genuine?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 07:39:27 pm »
Hi Chinechi,

     From what I can see from your photos, the scarabs look ancient and date to the Second Intermediate Period, and Hyksos Period.

     The first one may have a funerary purpose.

     The second is remarkable for two reasons. First, the scroll work on top is very unusual, possibly unique. It is not in Martin listed below.Secondly, it may contain a personal name, possibly "Nefer Hes" (the last two hieroglyphs on the bottom). I don't know if the other three hieroglyphs are a title. For a scarab with a similar name, see: Petrie, W,M. Flinders. Scarabs and Cylinders with Names. British School of Archaeology in Egypt and Egyptian Research Account Twenty-first Year, 1915. London: School of Archaeology in Egypt, Constable, and Bernard Quaritch, 1917: Plate XV, Number BE, but Petrie dated it to the Middle Kingdom.

     I looked in the following publications and found nothing comparable:
1.  Martin, J.T.   Egyptian Administrative and Private-Name Seals Principally of the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period, Oxford: Griffith Institute, Ashmolean    Museum, 1971.
2.  Matouk, Fouad S. Corpus du Scarabée Égyptien, Volume 1, Les Scarabées Royaux. Beirut: l’Académie Libanaise, not dated, circa 1972.
3.  Matouk, Fouad S. Corpus du Scarabée Égyptien, Volume 2, Analyse Thematique, Beirut: l’Académie Libanaise, 1977.
4.  Niccacci, Alviero.   Hyksos Scarabs. Trans. Godfrey Kloetzli. Studium Biblicum   Franciscanum Museum Number 2,  Jerusalem: Franciscan Printing Press, 1980.

Russ

 

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