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Author Topic: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.  (Read 55057 times)

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Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2013, 08:29:36 pm »
Good luck finding a "VM" specie, Seth. They are very hard to find. You'll likely find one in an unattributed lot or one that is overlooked as a "regular "MAX" Constantine. if you ever find one please post it I have a handful gallery of pics I'll include it there. As for the "IVN", I really never went looking for one, so can't comment on that one. Believe me there are plenty of LRBC's out there now,  I am just amazed on the output these mints produced, incredible. Very few LRBC can be classified a s truly "rare". You'll find one eventually. My hardest coins to locate were a Crispus Camp gate from Constantinople, A Hercules London issue Follis of Maximianus  struck during his second reign and a little ae4 of Rome of Julian II with a soldier carrying a trophy and dragging a captive. That Julian was especially satisfying because it was overlooked. Happy hunting.

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2013, 04:45:42 am »
I must admit my ignorance to that Julian type. I have never seen one like it. I bet attributing it was a real treat :)
Believe me there are plenty of LRBC's out there now,  I am just amazed on the output these mints produced, incredible.
I agree, you just need patience and time on your hands to carry an extensive sweep through all the venues. Nowadays, I am on a lookout more or less every evening for a couple of hours but I seldom see real rarities
Let's have a little contest if you like - I'll keep looking for a VM and you start your own hunt for a IVN of Constans, let's see who finds it first :)

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2013, 07:22:37 am »
Seth, yes sorry the Julian II coin is elusive. One seller had one up for auction and it was misattributed or listed as unidentified, I don't remember which and I was sniped at the last seconds to acquire it. Well, that got under my skin a little and went out to "hunt" for one. Anyway, another person had it up and I noticed it because the reverse legend reads VIRT EXERC ROMANOR with mint mark R wreath P in exergue (mine is missing because it is very tiny 14mm!). If you have a copy of Kents LRBC's
the coin picture is in the Plate section IV # 693.
On my coin, which is somewhat worn, no beard is shown, and I bet more are sitting in collections misattributed because of that.
This is still a rare/scarce issue only minted in the city of Rome. Not many come up for sale. Is it worth much, probably not, but we don't collect LRBC's to make money.
If I see a IVN or a VM, I'll let you know in a PM. I really don't "need" them in my collection now, but it would be nice to have the IVN coin. You can have first crack at it. I imagine more are lurking out there that need to be attributed.


seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2013, 09:28:54 am »
Let's do this - I'll let you know if a IVN appears, you'll let me know if a VM appears, so instead of competing, we collaborate :)
Free market for the win! :)

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 02:08:56 pm »
Hello again Seth, Ok partner, we have a deal. If I notice a VM out there, it's your if you want it. All I really need is a picture of it and specs. I am certain a few do not get noticed because this type is so common. I'll have first dibbs on the IVN, if I decline it's yours. Sounds like a win/win deal.
Happy Hunting. Forum auction has a Heraclea Constans that is one standard if you want to take a look. Nice interesting coin left facing bust.

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 09:57:59 pm »
Getting back to rare/interesting soldiers & standards types, I bought this yesterday, and although we have heavy snowfall here, I hope it reaches me safely  :-X

Constantine II as Augustus.

According to the seller, coin is 17mm 1.6g (the normal dimensions for late 337-340AD.)

OBV: CONSTANTI – NVS PF AVG; ladder-shaped diadem, draped cuirassed bust l.
REV: GLOR● - IA EXERC – ITVS; 2 soldiers facing holding spears and shields, one standard between them.
EXE: SMKΓ Cyzicus mint.
REF: RIC VIII Cyzicus 5var. (diadem type and officina unlisted in RIC)

Haven't seen this type of headdress before on this issue. Any notes?

(seller's pictures)

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2013, 10:44:33 am »
Hi Seth,
That is a worthwhile coin to look at. According to RIC your coin belongs to the 1st issue of the series, with ALL 3 Emperors facing left. He should be shown laureate, from my reading of RIC. Yours is obviously not and is clearly a ladder diademed, so it is unlisted!
I agree it is a #5 variation.  A cool coin and congrats on the purchase, you have a good eye. Cyzicus is one mint that has an interesting pattern of head bands, with a wide variety used, especially on the Providence Camp gate series.
After the death of Constantine, their father, I suppose the mint officials were unsure at first on how to display the brothers. So, this may well been one of the first coins issued until a clear directive was given.
So, the regular Constantine II is listed as "rare" in RIC and yours may well be "unique"!

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2013, 10:51:51 am »
Hi Seth,
That is a worthwhile coin to look at. According to RIC your coin belongs to the 1st issue of the series, with ALL 3 Emperors facing left. He should be shown laureate, from my reading of RIC. Yours is obviously not and is clearly a ladder diademed, so it is unlisted!
I agree it is a #5 variation.  A cool coin and congrats on the purchase, you have a good eye. Cyzicus is one mint that has an interesting pattern of head bands, with a wide variety used, especially on the Providence Camp gate series.
After the death of Constantine, their father, I suppose the mint officials were unsure at first on how to display the brothers. So, this may well been one of the first coins issued until a clear directive was given.
So, the regular Constantine II is listed as "rare" in RIC and yours may well be "unique"!

So, I went to "Wildwinds" and found an example of this series only minted for Constans. So, you have a picture here is the link:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/constans/_cyzicus_RIC_viii_017A.jpg

LATE ROMAN EMPIRE: Constans, as Caesar 333-337. Third Son of
Constantine I and Fausta, born about AD 320, died AD 350.

 [Constans - Two Soldiers/One Standard Reverse Coin Image]

Bronze AE4, Minted at Cyzicus during the period AD 337-340, 16 mm. Diameter.

Obverse: CONSTA-NS PF AVG, laurel and rosette diadem, left
facing, draped and cuirassed bust of Constans.

Reverse: GLOR-IA EXERC-ITVS, SMKS in exergue. Two soldiers
standing facing one another, each holding reversed spear and
resting hand on shield; between them one standard.

Reference: A great portrait bust of Constans. Listed as Sear
#3970v, RIC VIII Cyzicus #13 (RIC Rarity - "R").

Grade: VF+/F+ with crowded legends. Outstanding detail in the
diadem and hair as well as the cuirassing. Some strike weakness
and/or die wear seen on the reverse. Even light brown patina over
all surfaces.

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2013, 05:48:02 pm »
Hi Vincent,

Thanks, I was counting on your input; the perks of keeping an eye out for rare soldiers and standard(s). Still no VM though, hazard I guess :)
Speaking of left facing series, here is one really awkward little AE4, 14mm but ~3g heavy of Constans, also from the first post 337 series, this time at Heraclea (Heraclea 24)


Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2013, 06:51:47 pm »
Interesting, all three coins are from a different workshop! Interesting Ist series with a variety of obverses. I'll try to keep a lookout for more.
Maybe "Not in RIC" would be interested in listing your coin?

Offline Gert

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2013, 05:24:12 am »
I find it hard to believe that this VN type is a commemorative for Constantine the Great. Nothing in portrait or legend would hint at this being a commemorative issue, except for the letters VN, for which there is an alternative explanation in Victor Maximus. Both these titles Victor and Maximus are attested for Constantine II, and VICTOR is actually relatively common on some of his issues. So the obvious interpretation of the name Constantinus on this coin has to be the ruling emperor.
Attached a photo from my sold coins stock.
Regards
Gert

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2013, 10:18:23 am »
NOT IN RIC is for volumes VI and VII, this is volume VIII.
Gert: I also lean towards the Victor Maximus, a title that would fit with CII's ambitions as Constantine's eldest son.

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2013, 12:58:02 pm »
As this thread evolved beyond just my Israelian Constans IVN, I propose to use it as the official thread for scarce soldiers & standards types.
If agreed, could a moderator please pin it at sticky?
Thanks.

Offline Vincent

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The other side of the issue is Constans was the authority of the Mint of Heraclea at this time and was against death commemorative issues. His Postumous Aquileia issue of Constantine the Great were pretty much regular issues. Perhaps the mint officials at Heraclea utilized "VM" to distinguish these from Constantine II issues? So, I feel there is a possibility that they may indeed be for Constantine the Great. Like with Aquileia, a hoard of coins may be discovered to determine the actual. Now, I am not stating Gert or Seth are likely incorrect, but only there is a possibility.

Offline SC

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The argument in favour of the VM issue at Heraclea being a posthumous coinage for Constantine I is very similar to that for the more widely accepted posthumous coinage at Aquileia.

As Vincent notes Constans, who controlled both Aquileia and Heraclea (or at least exercised de facto control over Heraclea at this time as RIC sets out), was opposed to the consecration coinage struck for Constantine I by Constantine II and Constantius II.  He did not strike any.  Instead he appears to have struck posthumous versions of the regular type for Constantine I.

There were two obverse legend styles used at Heraclea in this phase: CONSTANTINVS AVG, CONSTANTIVS AVG and CONSTANS AVG; and then D N CONSTANTINVS P F AVG, D N CONSTANTIVS P F  AVG, and D N CONSTANS P F AVG.  The CONSTANTINVS V M AVG legend is an anomaly.  It is unmatched by other legends and it seems odd that a third legend would be used only for Constantine II at Constans' mint.  The situation is the same as with the contemporary CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG legend at Aquileia which does not match the CONSTANTINVS P F  AVG, CONSTANTIVS P F  AVG, and CONSTANS P F AVG legends and was judged as posthumous in RIC.

I think that given the parallelism in the pattern of coinage at Aquileia and Heraclea we have to either accept both the CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG and the CONSTANTINVS V M AVG as posthumous for Constantine I or neither.  Personally I find the argument for both compelling, when combined with the lack of regular consecration types, convincing.

Shawn
 
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Vincent

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Thank you Shawn for your evaluation on this issue. It is true Constans provided Constantine II with the inscribed "VIC" on Rome issues during his reign, and with no variations of the title. Also, I am not a scholar on such, but does the placement have any significance?
On Rome it is at the beginning and Heraclea placed differently? There are so few of these available to examine, I am not certain of  the extend of the issue of VM. Was it struck throughout Constan's reign? Maybe a hoard will tell the story.
It is a puzzle that would be gratifying to crack. I also believe it is possible to "solve".

Offline Gert

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'Victor' is at the start of the legend in the other mints, if I remember correctly. Maximus normally precedes Augustus. So the placement would be different for 'Victor'.
If VM means 'venerandae memoriae', which I very much doubt, that phrase would be expected after the name and titles, not between the name and AVG.
Regards
Gert

Offline Vincent

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Thank you, Gert, for your opinion and the photo of your coin from your past.
"VIC" was only placed at the city of Rome mint under the control of Constans for the AE 3 issues for a distinctive seperate type only reserved for Constantine II during their joint rule. True, as you and I noted, it was placed foward. It was also struck the whole joint reign of the 3 brothers.
In the case of Heraclea, as Shawn indicated, there was already a seperate coin issue for Constantine II as Augustus and he wondered why they would have another? As this "title" was not ever utilized before in this format, we really do not know if placement would have significance. It is a unique circumstance. If a hoard is uncovered and we can determine the exact time frame of striking that would help in perhaps understanding its intention. As I suggested, maybe the mint officials received a directive to produce  a "regular" postumous coinage for their father, Constantine the Great, for his "venerated memory" without any detail instructions. In the Thracian mints, this happened when the two soldier/ two standard issue was reduced and displayed the one standard. Mint officials took the order literally and changed the Urb Roma and Constantinople types with the reverse to one standard! This did not occur elsewhere in the Empire. So regional communication, primitive as was, sometimes produce unintended actions. Perhaps the order suggested this issue was for Constantine's "Venerated Memory", and the mint authorities at Heraclea inserted "VM" to comply with the order to distinguish it from Constantine II coins?
Since this is a rare coin, once the error was discovered, it was dropped quickly. On the other hand if it discovered it was an issue at the end of the 3 brothers joint rule, that would provide a strong case for "Victor Maximus" theory.
Again, this is a possibility.
Also, an examination of all known coins would be helpful. Comparing the headbands and other differences of the coins (number of dies, die links, weights, and strike positions). A nice project that I am undertaking.
As you pointed out, it could have been also for "Victor Maximus", the title given to Constantine II, Jr.
The question is, why was it dropped at Heraclea, while the issues of Rome continued the "VIC" title?
One final note; I'm only having fun with this coin "issue". It really does not matter what case it turns out to be.
I do hope it is a postumous coin, just because it makes the issue so much more desirable.

Offline Vincent

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Scarce 1st issue of Constantine II from Alexandria with "MAX"
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2013, 09:42:26 am »
Seems that mint officials were unsure when Constantine the Great died unexpectedly on May 22, 337. Probably to play it "safe" they struck coins with the honor "Maximus" for all three sons of Constantine in Alexandria initially. The coin I just obtained here displays Junior laureate, just as when he was Caesar, and on the reverse has the field letters S R in between the standard. RIC # 5 Vol VIII Alexandria

seth

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These are usually attributed by dealers to Constantine I and that is the premier reason why many think that coins of Constantine II as Augustus are scarce. If anything, I think (a somehow educated guess) that the scarcest of the 3 new Augusti GLORIA EXERCITVS MAX AVG series is Constans.

Offline Vincent

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Constans, 9 September 337 - 19 January 350 A.D.

52053. Bronze AE 4, RIC VIII 27, VF, Heraclea mint, 1.733 grams, 15.9 mm, die axis 0o, 346 - 348 A.D.; obverse CONSTANS AVG, rosette and laurel diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; reverse GLORIA EXERC-ITVS, two soldiers standing facing, flanking a standard in center, heads confronted, each holds a spear in outer hand and rests inner hand on grounded shield, SMHD in ex; scarce; estimated value: $19.00

Just received this coin from Forum Coins and it is indeed a scarce one, Thank You Joe!






seth

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I saw that one too. It's the same RIC as mine, posted a few posts up.
Congrats, good buy.

Later edit - actually mine is Heraclea 24, laureate and cuirassed bust l.

Offline Romanorum

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Not the prettiest coin in the bunch, but the GLOR :dot: IA dot actually makes this one rather rare (R4). RIC VII, 136. Cyzicus

Offline VonDrobac

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How about coins from Aquileia that have palm branch left and right from standard, did not saw it so many (or just did not noticed). RIC says that are all common, are they?

VonDrobac

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seth

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GLOR dot IA is only minted at Cyzicus for the one standard type. Some of them are quite uncommon, on the first page of this thread I posted a pretty interesting unrecorded variation for Constantine II as Augustus, bust left with ladder shaped diadem.

 

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