Rhodes 400 BC?

[dorme]

I found this coin going through my uncles stuff.  It came in a paper labeled from Spink & Sons, LTD, 5-7 King St., St James's, London, S.W. 1.  I suspect he bought it somewhere around the 1905-1914 era.  The paper also states in hand writing that it is a Didrachui of Rhodes B. C. 400.  I weighed it at 6.7 gms.  I would like to know more about it.
The lettering on the rose side appears to be "P O (triangle) l O N".

[rover1.3]

Having the weight of 6.7 gr. your coin is a silver Didrachm of c. 316-304 BC. SNG Keckman 445, Sammlung Karl 412-413.

The characteristics of this specific emission are:
a. The reverse bunch of grapes, which is attached to the rose by a tendril.
b. The bud on the right of the rose.
c. The letter E on the right field.

The reverse legend reads ΡΟΔΙΟΝ translated into "Of Rhodes".

[dorme]

rover1.3, thanks for your quick reply.  I don't quite understand the last sentence of yours.  Is that a reference?

[dorme]

Sorry, this is what I was referring to....SNG Keckman 445, Sammlung Karl 412-413.

[rover1.3]

Sorry, this is what I was referring to....SNG Keckman 445, Sammlung Karl 412-413.

Of course, they are references on specimens of the same as yours variety from the important collections of Keckman and Karl.

I found this coin going through my uncles stuff... I would like to know more about it....

Richard Ashton summarized the emissions of the Rhodian Didrachms and made some interesting observations in his "Rhodian Coinage and the Colossus" article of 1988 in Revue Numismatique.
The article can be found online, read and learn more: http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_1988_num_6_30_1920#
For the plates look here http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_1988_num_6_30_2700
Plate XVI lists your exact variety (25).

You can get some quick details about the history of ancient Rhodes and the numismatic representation of Helios as the patron god
of the island by reading that post of mine, here : https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=80471.msg503531#msg503531

[areich]

Nice coin with nice toning, please don't scrub or clean in any way!

[taurisker]

Nikos, for my interest:
You dated the coin in c. 316-304 BC ... that´s a very short time window.
What is the important point for this fixing?

Thanks in advance for your guidance.

Herfried

[rover1.3]

Ashton suggests the emission of tetradrachms and didrachms with E + Grapes attached to the rose by a tendril (Ashton Colossus, Series 1b)
started in 316 BC and continued until 304 BC, at about that date the didrachms of Series 2 begins.
You can read about the dating in Ashton's work I gave a link to, above.
Series 1 is devided into Series 1a and Series1b. There are some stylistic differences between the two sub-groups.
The grapes on the reverses of the Series 1a are unnatchached to the roses, on Series 1b the grapes are attached.
The overall style of Series 1a is characterized by Ashton as superior to the style of Series 1b.
From my observations in the market, I believe the didrachms of Series 1b (an example of which started our conversation here) are a bit rarer.

[dorme]

Thanks, areich, I had a wire brush in one hand and a can of Comet in the other when I started to read your reply.

[taurisker]

Thanks, areich, I had a wire brush in one hand and a can of Comet in the other when I started to read your reply.

Wire brush ? Comet ??
O-M-G !!!
It will be a wise decision if you leave the toning as it is ... and it´s really beautiful.

[taurisker]

From my observations in the market, I believe the didrachms of series 1b (an example of which started our conversation here) are a bit rarer.

Thank you ... this will help me for my future acquisitions, because a didrachm (and tetradrachm) of that type is on my wishlist.

[areich]

It never hurts to say it, cleaning coins is one of the most common mistakes of non-collectors. In this case it would be a disaster.

[rover1.3]

From my observations in the market, I believe the didrachms of series 1b (an example of which started our conversation here) are a bit rarer.

Thank you ... this will help me for my future acquisitions, because a didrachm (and tetradrachm) of that type is on my wishlist.

Herfried,

Rhodian Didrachms are common coins, one could say. They span a period of about one hundred and fifty years, from c.333 to c.188 BC, when the reorganization of Rhodian coinage took place with the introduction of the Plinthophoroi and the abandonment of silver denominations higher than a Drachm.

Rhodian Didrachms are really beautiful coins; they force a strong psychological effect on people who appreciate the aesthetic aspect of Greek coins.
This is mainly because of their high relief, expressive facing heads obverses but their beautifully engraved roses are equally impressive, too.
The combination of the mighty Helios with the noble flower gives these types a rare, these days, balanced charm of power, combined with purity.

In hand, these coins are absolutely marvelous and they look like small sculptures. Early (unrayed portrait) issues are usually of higher obverse relief compared with the later coins. The heads on the earlier coins were engraved on a larger scale; sometimes, the portrait covers the whole obverse space; that, in conjuction with the significant high relief and their fairly small diameter, make these coins look really chunky!
We have incuse reverse didrachms, square in earlier emissions, round incuse or no incuse reverse coins on later issues.
From c.265 BC and later, almost all Didrachms bear magistrates names, unlike the earlier, which bear only field symbols and/or monograms.
Rayed portrait (c. 250 BC and later) Didrachms have the whole reverse design engraved inside a border of pearls.
Some late, post-Plinthophoric silver issues, probably drachms (?) of uncertain weight standard, have the reverse depiction of a full-blown rose, seen from above.  

In my opinion and according to my aesthetics, Rhodian coins (particularly the early, unrayed facing heads Tetradrachm and Didrachm issues) are among the most charming coins ever made.

Yours ever,

Nikos

[taurisker]

Dear Nikos,

thanks a lot for your great guidance! I appreciate your opinions very much, for me it is a real benefit to read your explanations about greek coins. That´s no butter up: it is always a pleasure to learn from real experts.

So I´ll take the opportunity now, because it matches into this thread, to check my attributions of two examples from Rhodos out of my collection:

Drachm or Hemidrachm (?) c. 88-84 BC NIKHΦOPOY magistrate
Radiate head of Helios right//rose with tendril to right P-O
16.1mm 2.28g
Keckman 676 (?)

Drachm or Hemidrachm (?) c. 230-205 BC AMЄINIAΣ magistrate
Head of Helios enface//rose with tendril to right, trident left, P-O
15mm 3.16g
BMC 162, Copenhagen 776, von Aulock 2810 (?)

The dating and the attributions are out of some web-sources and from the dealers where I purchased the coins.
Am I right with them?

Herfried

[rover1.3]

Regarding the coin under ΑΜΕΙΝΙΑΣ magistrate, yes, you are correct , c. 230-205 BC, SNG Keckman 552, Sammlung Karl 488-489.

Regarding the Plinthophoric Drachm under ΝΙΚΗΦΟΡΟΣ magistrate...
Yes, Keckman 676 is correct, although the example in Keckman reads ΝΙΚΗΦΟΡΟΣ, the die on yours reads ΝΙΚΗΦΟΡΟΥ (of Nikephoros, it is in the genetive).
Most of the coins under Nikephoros (the Victory bearer) read ΝΙΚΗΦΟΡΟΣ and in rarer cases they bear the name in the genetive, as yours, here (ΝΙΚΗΦΟΡΟΥ).
I would mark your example as Keckman's 676 var. , Sammlung Karl 632 var.
Jenkins detailed work on Plinthophoroi places the issue under NIKHΦΟΡΟΣ into the late Plinthophoric Group E of c. 88-84 BC. (Jenkins 249).
Late Plinthophoric Drachms of Jenkins Group E are considerably lighter than the earlier groups Drachms of approximately 3 g. The weight of your example (2.28gr) is absolutely normal for the period.
Keckman's plate example weighs 2.4g. Karl's 632 weighs 2.07 g. Your coin falls between. The symblol in the reverse left field is a hand holding a corn ear.
Jenkins Plinthophoric Group E is most likely connected with the siege of Rhodes by Mithridates VI in 88 BC.
Read here : https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=80471.msg502571#msg502571

[taurisker]

Σας ευχαριστώ !

Nikos, thanks a lot for your rapid and precise explanation/report 

Warm regards my friend.

Yours
Herfried

[dorme]

I greatly appreciate all the helpful knowledge and advice I've received here.  In addition, I have learned more than I expected from such a learned group.  I could certainly see a interest and joy in collecting but at this point in my life I am more interested in living simply.  Thus I would like to sell this coin but I have no idea what it is worth or what would be the best method. 

[rover1.3]

We prefer not to talk about prices here. Pricing is subjective and depends on many factors. Each ancient coin is unique and different from the other of the same type.
Preservation, rarity, style, centering, etc. All these are important.
A search for similar examples from past auctions can give you a rough estimate:
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=rhodes%2Bdidrachm&view_mode=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ol=1&sort=&c=&a=&l=#0

I would characterize your coin as "desirable" and "valuable". It looks genuine and the style is good.
The best to do is to consign it to an honest dealer like Joe Sermarini, owner of the FORVM. Click on the blue term (consign) to read more.

P.S. A reminder for everybody: This discussion board is hosted by FORVM, an ancient coins shop.
Let's concentrate on the identification and the history and avoid offering tenders for your coins if you want to sell them.
As a moderator, I will be obliged to delete such posts as well as posts from potential buyers.
The only place where people can sell here is the member's auction.

[taurisker]

I greatly appreciate all the helpful knowledge and advice I've received here.  In addition, I have learned more than I expected from such a learned group.  I could certainly see a interest and joy in collecting but at this point in my life I am more interested in living simply.  Thus I would like to sell this coin but I have no idea what it is worth or what would be the best method.  

Auction house ... reputable dealer ... (members of) FORVM ... there are many ways to sell the coin.

[Tony A]

I would suggest hanging on to it. The coin is fairly common, so what you sell it for may not be worth the time and effort. Also, you may someday regret your decision. The coin is "common" for collectors, but is still a unique and tangible piece of history. 

Another alternative would be to donate it to a school or church. You can get a nice tax break and further someone's education. And who knows? Your donation might spark the interest of a future collector. (Many - if not most - of us here donate a lot of coins to schools and teachers. Rhodes was a very important city in ancient times and it's Colossus was one of the Wonders of the World.)

Just a thought or two.

Best to all,

Tony

[taurisker]

I would suggest hanging on to it. The coin is fairly common, so what you sell it for may not be worth the time and effort.

I have to disagree ... sure, the coin may be 'common' (whatever that may mean for a very fine ancient greek coin of 400 BC) but it is not that worthless you mean. We don´t talk about prices here, but for me it would be worth the time and the afford to sell it. Of course.

I would consider it donate this really beautiful and desireable coin to a school or church if my name is Bill Gates, for example. Then I could do without the money.

Best regards
taurisker

[areich]

I would not sell but consign it to a dealer or an auction. But if you do not need the money now, the coin will keep its value. If you do not enjoy looking at it, you should sell in my opinion to give a collector a chance to aquire it. I have had good success consigning coins to FORVM. Selling on Ebay you would not get as much.

[Lee S]

Agreed... If the coin is not loved, sell it to someone who will love it!! 

   

d.
The best to do is to consign it to an honest dealer like Joe Sermarini, owner of the FORVM. Click on the blue term (consign) to read more.

[Tony A]

Perhaps I didn't make myself as clear as I should have or meant to. I wasn't implying the coin was worthless, just that it wouldn't be a huge windfall. Most people think our little Constantinian Ae 3's and 4's are worth a lot of money, and the reality can be somewhat disappointing. With the coin market being down these days, our friend may have to wait a long time to sell it or settle for a greatly reduced price. It may or may not be worth the effort to him. But as always, it is his choice alone. (And if he finds a buyer - and I wish I had the cash to make an offer - good for everyone concerned!)

I also was urging caution. Getting rid of a coin like that is something our friend may regret later on. After my parents passed away I threw out and gave away a lot of things I now wish I would have kept. Some things were quite valuable, others had sentimental value that I didn't recognize at the time.

And for some folks, donating a coin or artifact may prove more beneficial for tax purposes than selling it - and schools and teachers and students could greatly benefit. Rhodes, after all, was an important city, the home of the Colussus, and even is mentioned in the Bible.

But I certainly was not trying to de-value the coin or discourage him from doing whatever he wants. I was simply trying to give him a few options he may not have considered.

Tony

[dorme]

Tony, I know what you mean in your recent response.  I once had a sister call me and ask if I wanted a box of family papers that she was going to throw out (my mother had just died).  I reluctantly agreed to take them.
 
One rainy Saturday a year later I decided to go through them.  Guess what I found that could have been thrown away!  4 letters signed by Pres. John Adams, one from Madison....shall I go on....T. Roosevelt, several Supreme Court Justices, and many more important people of the 18th and 19th century that most people would not recognize.
 
So, it pays to have knowledge of many things just so that you won't discard them to quickly.

The coin is going to be sold.  I don't have a collection and at my age I don't plan to start.  Someone will love it and I would rather have the money at this point, however small it might be.  I would hate to have my children find it after my death and think it an old useless button or some such thing.  That is what could happen as demonstrated by my previous tale of what happens to family goods. 

Oh, and BTW, a somewhat sad point to the "box of family letters" episode was that one of the Pres. John Adams letters was partially eaten by mice.  Not the corners of the letter, not the body of the letter, but the damn signature only!  Somewhere in NH there is a $10K mouse running around!  The letter proved to be worthless.