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Author Topic: The Anti-Christian Emperors  (Read 24891 times)

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Jericho

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The Anti-Christian Emperors
« on: February 23, 2003, 11:48:42 am »
I know I should do my homework on this, but...

Who were some of the most anti-Christian of the roman emperors?  I knew nothing about Julian the Apostate until this morning and had no idea of his anti-Christian, pro-paganism stance.

I'm slowly educating myself on these emperors whose coins I own, but it's slow going.

I'm curious, who are some of the greatest (or most infamous) anti-Christian emperors?

jericho

Offline LordBest

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2003, 11:55:40 am »
Nero
Marcus Aurelius
Trajan Decius
Valerian
Claudius Gothicus
Diocletian
Galerius
Maxentius
Julian II
Possibly Basil II, someone theorised he was a pagan for some reason. Trust me to know this eh. ::)
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the_Apostate

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2003, 12:00:37 pm »
Nero (I don't think he'd ever heard about the sect), Decius and Diocletian are sometimes considered as having taken a special delight in pursuing the Christians.

If you want to read about good old Julian there are many books and ancient sources. The apostate is probably the emperor about whom we know the most. Ammianus Marcellinus (a pagan) wrote about him and then there are the Christian historians. Socrates for instance - I believe - (I'm just too lazy to get up from my chair and check it out) wrote extensively about Julian or Julien le Philosophe as the Frogs call him.

G. W. Bowersock has written a short and highly readable book on the emperor and some of the emperor's own writings are also extant. (3 volumes in the Loeb library)

Some Byz pagans used the death of Julian instead of the death of Christ as marking a new era.

Offline LordBest

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2003, 12:04:11 pm »
Yes, Nero blamed them for the fire, Claudius II (Gothicus) claim to fame is martyring St Valentinus and Diocletian should in fact come after Galerius as Galerius was really fanatical about it while Diocletian thought it was just good for a laugh, I'd imagine. Some of Julian IIs own writing have surived, I have a letter he wrote the public of Antioch (who didnt like him much and didnt want to convert) which is a brilliant piece of self-satire. And guess what, the public of Antioch converted. ::) I think it was Antioch anyway.
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the_Apostate

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2003, 12:11:47 pm »
If you're interested in the transition from paganism to christianity I recommend that you get Pagans and Christians by Robin Lane Fox. I'm almost prepared to promise you the money back if you're dissatisfied by this broad work that conjures up a lost world. The past is a foreign country and reading this book is like travelling.

There's also an old German work called die letzten Tagen des Griechischen-Römischen Heidenheits by J. Geffcken. I don't know if there's a translation but if anyone should have a dusty copy on their shelf I'm more than willing to buy it.

T. D. Barnes is supposed to be very good on Constantine and should include lots of info about his pagan forerunners as well.

Ramsay McMullen, A. D. Nock and Peter Brown are also recommended.


the_Apostate

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2003, 12:35:24 pm »
Anyone interested in the above-mentioned Basil II or Basil the Bulgar-slayer should read the masterly chapter about the emperor in Psellus' Chronographia.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2003, 03:36:10 pm »
Julian didn't persecute Christians in the normal sense of the term, but he did make life difficult for them by throwing out pro-Christian laws, ordering the teaching of anti-Christian works, and the like. The last persecutions were at least partly aimed at church finances; the empire needed money, and the church had it. By that time, though, relationships were closer than they might seem; the church was already beginning to use the imperial courts to settle property disputes. Constantine's takover was really the result of a process of evolution rather than a sudden change.

I suspect the persecutions may have been exaggerated; one Second-Century writer (I forget who) says that they 'know the names' of the martyrs, which suggests that there was a fairly limited number of them. Tertullina may have written that 'If the Tiber rises to the walls, if the Nile fails to rise, if there is famine, if there is plague, the cry goes up, 'The Christians to the lion!'. what, all of them to one lion?' but he was a terrible exaggerator, and he wasn't the only one. I doubt whether the empire was sufficiantly organised for the sort of widespread persecution often envisaged; the Emperor would issue a decree, but whether and how far it was carried out probably depended largely on provincial governors. Diocletian's laws about maximum prices don't seem to have had much effect, and it was probably the same thing in numerous other areas.
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Offline Rugser

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2003, 05:31:25 pm »
I defend IULIANUS II.
This emperor is a survivor to the slaughter of the families perpetrated from Constantinus I (cynical man and opportunist). Order to Atene studies philosophy with profit and absorbs the values of the Attica (Justice and Democracy).
Become Julianus imperator is of front a big problem....  was initiated  the persecution of the Christians against the pagans.
Julianus intervenes and declares free each cult. .obviously the pagan to despoil of all his possessions asks the reinstate,,,. "give to us our temples... .and the attached propertys "  They that's why burst brawls and revolts.
....Julianus intervenes and tries to do to respect his edicts.
The Christians win the game and write the history to their use and consumption.
For avoid equivocals I declare of be Christian Apostolic Roman.. .and also convinced democratic.

ser

Offline LordBest

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2003, 06:05:16 pm »
The persecution of Christians was in many ways unique in history. It was rather small to gain such publicity, it was not the size claime by early historians as Christianity didnt have the numbers until the 5th century to be persecuted in such a manner and by then they were persecuting pagans. secondly it was the only persecution where people were tortured and cajoled to save them. Instead of killing people because they were Christian the government tried to get them to show loyalty to the emperor, if they had done that they could have gone home regardless of their religious beliefs. Much of the evidence gathered from earlier Christian cemetaries would indicate that in fact many more Christians sacrificed to the emperor and went on happily rather than became matyrs.The numbers that died naturally areproportionate to the amount of early Christians believed to have been in the empire, and very few showed signs of execution.
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Laetvs

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2003, 09:15:59 pm »
LB, the persecution of Christians went beyond being merely an issue of loyalty to the emperor, at least during Diocletian's reign...it was a real religious struggle.  In 303, Diocletian issued an edict prohibiting all assemblies of Christians for purposes of worship and commanded the destruction of their churches and sacred texts.  This was followed by two further edicts ordering the arrest of all Christian clergy who refused to sacrifice to pagan divinities.  A fourth edict in 304 extended these edicts to all Christians, not just clergy.
 

Offline LordBest

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2003, 09:26:04 pm »
Oh yeah, it was different during the Geat Persecution of Diocletian and Galerius, i was referring to the earlier persecutions. But even the "great" persecution is an overblown title as christians werent particularly numerous. remember only about half the population attached themselvesto any single cult, and by far the largest was the cult of Isis, followed by Mithras leaving Christianity with a very small percentage of the population. And when you consider most of them were not matyred it only leaves a very small number who were killed and this is coroborated by burial evidence. But it was still far more sadistic and took on overtones of ethnic cleansing during the first decade of the 4th century.
One chap I spoke to likened the persecution of Dio and Galerius to the Nazi persecution of gypsies and the persecutions of earlier times to the US perseuction of communists. I personally think both are innacurate but there you go. ::)
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sejanus

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2003, 07:50:47 pm »
I, too, defend Nero.  His "ravanous pursuing of Christians" was no more than bull-plop conceived solely by biased Christian historians who lived 500 years after the man died.  He did not set fire to Rome, nor did he burn Christians alive. >:(  The fire started in a bakery. :P

Laetvs

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2003, 10:11:22 pm »
Sejanus and LB, there IS evidence outside of Christian writers that Nero killed Christians, in Rome, in front of crowds, and burned them alive.  Read Tacitus' Annals XV:  "Dressed in wild animals' skins, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or crucified, or made into torches to be ignited after dark as substitutes for daylight.  Nero provided his Gardens for the spectacle, and exhibited displays in the Circus, at which he mingled with the crowd."

EmpressCollector

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2003, 07:22:33 am »
Claudius II (Gothicus) was the emperor responsible for the persecution which resulted in the execution of St. Valentine on Feb. 14, 270.  By the way, in addition to being a lay priest, Valentine was a physician. :)

Offline Rugser

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2003, 11:25:59 am »
In my city Claudius II has a tall consideration.
Beyond to the spent possession all years long of his kingdom for contain the diffused anarchy from the auto-proclamation of many usurpers, it besides always was attentive to the economic comfort of the population that lived working the fields. .the chronicles tell us that it to expenses of the state made scatter million of tons of quicklime on the ground of many regions for reduce the acidity of the ground and to give again the fertility impoverished from too intense exploitation.
This economic healing got him the recognition "post mortem.". .the so much commemorative coins attest it,
As then to the persecutions must be told that the Christianity has founded his fortune on the commiseration of wrong perhaps not suffered from..  

ser

sejanus

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2003, 06:25:46 pm »
About Tacitus' claim - though he is more accurate than any other ancient historian of whom I know, he is EXTREMELY biased! :o  He makes many false claims about Tiberius and all the other saps he didn't like, one of which was Nero.  Nero was not mad.  Nero was loved by the public until the great fire - HE WAS THE LAST SURVIVING HEIR OF GERMANICUS!!!!!!! :o :o :o

Laetvs

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2003, 09:53:57 pm »
LB - If Tacitus wrote that Nero persecuted Christians, even assuming some bias and inaccuracy, there is simply no logical way to blame 6th century Christians for "conceiving" the story. Now you're casting doubt on the account by saying that Tacitus is extremely biased.  I don't dispute that, and am indeed convinced that he exaggerated many of Nero's faults.  But why would he invent this particular story?  Tacitus was no fan of the Christians, and even stated that they deserved their punishment.  He was not alone in this belief: Suetonius wrote essentially the same thing, listing the persecution of Christians among Nero's good deeds.  So if Tacitus really wanted to discredit Nero on this issue, why would he make up something that he would no doubt categorize as one of Nero's good deeds?  Wouldn't it make more sense for him to downplay the persecutions, thereby implying that Nero was "soft on crime?"

Obvoiusly, you are an admirer of Rome's pagan culture, as, to a point, am I.  I hope you will not let that admiration cloud your logic, nor lead you to knowingly make factually erroneous claims under the guise of defending that culture.

Offline LordBest

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2003, 10:01:16 pm »
Remember Tacitus and Suetonius were good friends from the same class and I think both were extremely biased against emperors who persecuted their class. However if Pliny, whom I believe to be far more impartial, corroborates them both then I will be convinced it happened. This is the way to go about studying ancient history, checking all sources and then speculating about the bits that overlap. One of the reasons Gallienus turned out to be one of the most brilliant emperors, once you sort out the crap all thats left is a brilliant campaigners who presided over a cultural renaissance. Sodding Historia Augusta)
Romes "pagan culture" was the most tolerant and cultured society in charge of the greatest empire and wealthiest state in the entirety of human history, not to say it didnt have its down side. :)
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Laetvs

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2003, 10:19:39 pm »
LB, you're not understanding what I'm saying.  I agree that Tacitus was biased against Nero.  But Tacitus didn't like Christians either, and thought they deserved their punishment.  So, logically, why would Tacitus fabricate a story about Nero doing a good deed if Tacitus' intent was to discredit Nero?  It doesn't make sense.

Offline LordBest

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2003, 10:24:48 pm »
Ah, thats a good point actually. When I have the time I'll read through Pliny and see what he says, and maybe go through Tacitus again too.
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the_Apostate

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2003, 04:55:52 am »
I agree with Laetus. If Tacitus who was about ten years old when Nero pathetically exclaimed "Qualis artifex pereo" wrote that Nero persecuted the christians it was probably because he did so.

It is also important to remember that Tacitus didn't take it for granted that his readers knew who the christians were. He explained that they were the followers of a criminal (I think he uses that word but I can't find the passage right now) executed during the reign of Tiberius. It is not likely that he had reason to tell lies about a not very well known religious sect.


Offline LordBest

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2003, 06:00:08 am »
Of course Tacitus had to explain who the Christians were, there were 300 cults of varying sizes existing in the city of Rome, saying "Oh the Christians are being burned again, poor buggers" would most likely get a response of "which ones are the Christians again?". Christians were not a household name until the 4th century. :)
This sort of debate is good though, I always assumed that because there was doubt about the veracity of Tacitus claims then it was probable they were fictitious. Now that i think about it and as Laetvs pointed out Tacitus didnt like Christians it seems more likely that during the reign of Nero Christians were publicly executed.
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sejanus

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2003, 04:33:51 pm »
You say that Tacitus was around 10 under the regn of Nero?  The persecution of Christians would not be a 10-year-old's main concerns.  In fact, he probably didn't even care unil he began writing his books.  Nero had no reason to persecute Christians - as he was not insane nor were the Christians any threat to Romans society.  The Romans were an incredibly tolerant race; which is one of the main reasons that they survived for so long.  Adopting the traditions and assimilating other peoples was a great skill that the Romans had.  They did not single out peoples for their religion, nor the colour of their skin.  I am not saying that the Romans agreed with Christianity, but I am saying that they did not loathe it.  Tacitus claims many inaccuracies against almost every emperor he writes about.  He could just have easily stated that Nero persecuted the Zoroasterians.  And, as you claim, Tacitus was also not particularly fond of the Christians either - especially when calling Christ a criminal.  Thus with this short passage he was able to kill two birds with one stone.  As most great writers, Tacitus can invent fanciful stories or fantasies.  He did so with every emperor - especially Tiberius.  Suetonius also had a penchant for inventing things - and the mere fact that they were friends and wrote about the same things comes as no surprise.

And why, may I ask, did not Cassius Dio write of this?  And why did no other pagan historians write of this?  Why did only later, Christian propagandists write about this?  These same Christian "historians" who made it seem as though the Christians had been the butt of Roman jokes and atrocities, tried desperately with their rambling writings to glorify Christianity and make it saeem as though it had been punished.  I have all too many Julio-Claudian historians who agree with this; who say that no, Nero did not tie up Chrisitians, tar them and burn them alive.  History has a bad way wrongly incriminating people because of one line in on book written by one author who couldn't care less.  To believe the later Christian propagandists is to hold onto old, incorrect traditions and to not look at all of the facts.  Look at all of the factors and biases before coming to a conclusion, for this will surely spread light on any topic.

Laetvs

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2003, 09:52:38 pm »
Quote from: Sejanus on February 28, 2003, 04:33:51 pm
I have all too many Julio-Claudian historians who agree with this; who say that no, Nero did not tie up Chrisitians, tar them and burn them alive.  

Name them.

the_Apostate

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2003, 06:23:22 am »
Quote from: Sejanus on February 28, 2003, 04:33:51 pm
You say that Tacitus was around 10 under the reign of Nero?  The persecution of Christians would not be a 10-year-old's main concerns.  

When I was 10 I watched the news. I'm sure Tacitus was a boy of more sense than me and that he noticed some things.

I know Tacitus was a better writer than an accurate historian and I only said that his words make it probable that Nero persecuted the Christians. To be reasonably sure we would need more evidence. However they were a fanatic group, they didn't carry the respect of tradition and it wouldn't be surprising if they made themselves conspicuous very early - fine scapegoats!

I didn't reach a stronger conclusion than some likelihood, otherwise I agree with most of your post.


the_Apostate

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2003, 07:55:48 am »

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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2003, 07:56:43 am »
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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re:The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2005, 07:23:45 pm »

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2005, 05:04:53 am »
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2005, 07:42:56 am »

Massanutten

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2005, 07:54:01 am »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2005, 08:35:37 am »
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2005, 09:05:03 am »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2005, 03:15:16 pm »
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2005, 06:45:36 am »

Massanutten

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2005, 11:11:13 am »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2005, 04:40:37 pm »
Robert Brenchley

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Massanutten

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2005, 05:26:52 pm »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2005, 05:53:44 pm »
Robert Brenchley

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Massanutten

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2005, 07:49:54 pm »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2005, 04:06:34 am »
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Massanutten

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2005, 09:21:04 am »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2005, 11:44:42 am »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2005, 03:43:20 pm »
Robert Brenchley

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Massanutten

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2005, 08:00:34 pm »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2005, 03:59:02 am »

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2005, 10:52:32 am »
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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2005, 01:52:25 am »

Hermes III

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2005, 04:52:18 am »

Massanutten

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2005, 10:18:30 pm »

Hermes III

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Re: The Anti-Christian Emperors
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2005, 06:17:32 am »

 

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