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Author Topic: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?  (Read 21010 times)

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Lloyd Taylor

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The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« on: November 09, 2009, 03:49:52 am »
Does anyone know of the meaning, or significance attached to the bent leg design on the following coin?

PHLIASIA, Phlious. Late 6th-early 5th century BC. AR Obol or 1/12 Stater (1.03 g). Human leg bent to right / Incuse square divided into six irregular compartments. Seltman pl. XIV, a; BCD Peloponnesos 79 (same dies)

Offline areich

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2009, 04:38:59 am »
I can't help you but if this is indeed a bent leg, what a strange thing to put on a coin!
Andreas Reich

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2009, 06:17:17 am »
Like you, I struggle that it is actually a bent leg that is depicted.  Looks more like a hanging fruit of some kind to me! But a leg is the description and in BCD Peloponnesos Alan Walker describes it as a "Human leg with prominent kneecap bent to the right".  Quite an imagination has that Mr Walker;D It seems to me that a leg without a foot is a pretty strange thing to depict on a coin, but maybe things were different in the ancient mind.

A purportedly contemporaneous Phlious half-stater (lBCD Peloponnesos 77) bears a triskeles of human legs and all I can think is that the obol was too small for the engraver to do a triskeles, which he abbreviated to a single leg (without a foot). However, the attribution of the half-stater triskeles to Phlious is quite uncertain so my suggested possible link to the leg on the obol as an artistic abbreviation of a triskeles is pretty dubious.

It has me bewildered and I was hoping someone could shed some light on what is depicted and its significance to the ancient mind.

Offline esnible

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 08:36:14 am »
If the 1/4 stater had a triskeles of three legs and the 1/12 stater had a single leg that would make sense.  But you say it's the half stater with the triskeles?

I'm attaching a coin in my collection which has a strange symbol resembling a mushroom.  It's from Boeotia, and is a hemiobol.  The obol shows a Boeotian shield.

Offline archivum

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 09:22:37 am »

The bent leg by itself: visual shorthand perhaps for a warrior?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Squatting_warrior_Staatliche_Antikensammlungen_8966.jpg
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Offline Dapsul

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 02:15:51 pm »
Ed, I think the Boeotian hemiobol has the upper half of a Boeotian shield.

Frank

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 02:25:12 pm »
I think Ed knows.
Andreas Reich

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 02:50:16 pm »
Of course he knows - after a tiring day of teaching I cannot switch the roles so fast ;-)

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 03:00:26 pm »
If the 1/4 stater had a triskeles of three legs and the 1/12 stater had a single leg that would make sense.  But you say it's the half stater with the triskeles?

I'm attaching a coin in my collection which has a strange symbol resembling a mushroom.  It's from Boeotia, and is a hemiobol.  The obol shows a Boeotian shield.

The triskeles half staterBCD Peloponnesos 77, described by Walker weighs 7.13 gms, which seems to rule out the idea that the number of legs indicates a multiple of value on this coin series, although as you note the idea has a sound basis with respect to some other series such as the Boeotian obol.

On the Boeotian obol I can confirm that Frank's description of it being half a Boeotian shield accords with the descriptions I have seen. It makes sense that an obol bears a full shield and a hemiobol a half shield as a clear identification of value on lumpy flans that were of different but barely discernible weights for each denomination but by virtue of the flan casting and subsequent striking process of no fixed diameter.

The bent leg by itself: visual shorthand perhaps for a warrior?

I like this explanation of its meaning. The Greek hoplite is depicted on other coinages, frequently in a crouching position with his bent leg being a prominent element of the design.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2009, 03:38:14 pm »
If the 1/4 stater had a triskeles of three legs and the 1/12 stater had a single leg that would make sense.  But you say it's the half stater with the triskeles?

I'm attaching a coin in my collection which has a strange symbol resembling a mushroom.  It's from Boeotia, and is a hemiobol.  The obol shows a Boeotian shield.

The triskeles half staterBCD Peloponnesos 77, described by Walker weighs 7.13 gms, which seems to rule out the idea that the number of legs indicates a multiple of value on this coin series, although as you note the idea has a sound basis with respect to some other series such as the Boeotian obol.

Reconsideration of this point as I jumped the gun in my reply - I should note that the triskeles half stater (BCD Peloponnesos 77) is considered by Walker to be of uncertain attribution to Phlious, as is the bent leg obol, and there is some uncertainty about the weight standard applicable to each. (BCD Peloponnesos page 39). It may be that the two coins are not related and that the obol represents the smallest denomination of a series in which the number of legs is indicative of denomination, as you suggest.  The coins are quite rare and it may be that higher denominations in the series have yet to be found.

I find the idea that the bent leg is artistic shorthand for the hoplite warrior quite compelling. Also I think is would be compatible with the idea of an increased number of bent legs on coins of higher denomination, culminating in the triskeles.

All - Thanks for the food for thought.

Now to find an example of a diobol with two opposed bent legs!


Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 02:23:39 am »
In the early part of this thread I noted that the bent leg seemed to be missing a foot.

The following Phlious bent leg obol has what appears to be the the vestiges of a strangely articulated club foot, or is it a hoof (?) visible. 

This adds a little more to the mystery, which makes me wonder if it is the leg of a satyr that is on display, rather than that of a warrior?  The thick thigh/rump of the bent leg is also consistent with the depictions of a satyr on other coinage.

Any thoughts on this aspect?

Offline Enodia

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2009, 03:38:28 am »
i tried to rotate the first image into what looked something like a lily, but this last coin certainly looks similar to a satyr's leg (no matter how much i try to rotate it into a swan).

i was thinking perhaps the thigh quarter for a sacrifice as an alternative.

~ Peter

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2009, 04:32:07 am »
i tried to rotate the first image into what looked something like a lily, but this last coin certainly looks similar to a satyr's leg (no matter how much i try to rotate it into a swan).

i was thinking perhaps the thigh quarter for a sacrifice as an alternative.

~ Peter

Peter,

My original tought on reading this was.... is this guy visually impaired?  Then it jumped out at me.  :) 180 degrees of rotation an there is a swan!

However, your suggestion of the thigh quarter for a sacrifice makes far more sense and is quite credible given the pagan rituals of the time. 

I think we may be closing in on the truth of the matter and the meaning/significance of the design. 

Many thanks for the incisive suggestion.

Do others see it similarly? If so, this may be a small break through in interpretation of the obverse design.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 07:18:08 am »
A further consideration that has bearing on Peter's suggestion is that the image of the bull features prominently on the subsequent Classical coinage of Phlious. On these later issues the image is variously that of the forepart of a bull, the head of a bull and a butting bull.

Hence the possibility as Peter suggests that the bent leg image on the earliest Archaic obols of Phlious is the hind quarter of a sacrificial bull.

dugumr

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 11:09:04 pm »
A bull has four legs with one leg=1/4 of the total therefore - an ancient quarter? Somebody who knows more about ancient denominations can take it from there.

Just a thought.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2009, 12:13:06 am »
A bull has four legs with one leg=1/4 of the total therefore - an ancient quarter? Somebody who knows more about ancient denominations can take it from there. 

This would be a possible explanation in the absence of one known example of a hemiobol or 1/24th stater weighing 0.57 gms with exactly the same design.  This hemiobol came to market as BCD Peloponnesos 80 accompanied by the comment from BCD that ..."while on the hand it does not look right to have a twenty-fourth with exactly the same types as a twelfth, on the other, as ASW (Alan Walker) said, what were they supposed to display on a smaller coin, a foot or a toe?"

This comment was of course made in the context that the design was interpreted to be a bent human leg.  But it highlights that the bent leg, or in my preferred interpretation the hind quarter of a bull calf, does not signify a denomination.

This is also borne out by the fact that the only larger denomination from the Archaic period of Phlious, is a half stater bearing a triskeles of human legs (BCD Peloponnesos 77), which like the obol and hemiobol referenced above, are very curiously struck on a Milesian (Asian) weight standard based on a stater of 14 gms . So no other denominations from the Archaic period are known that bear all or part of a bull.

In this context it must be remembered that these coins are amongst the earliest struck in the Peloponnesos so that direct comparisons to later coinage by way of denominations is difficult. The Phlious issues bearing a bull are of the Classical era and commence at least 50 years after the last of the Archaic coinage. These early Classical era issues are struck on a heavier weight standard, based on a drachm of ca 5.8 gms, which is likely derived from the Archaic Corcyrean standard.  So there is no direct connection in terms of denominations between the Archaic coinage and the Classical era coinage, which bears clearly defined bull imagery. 

I believe that the example from CNG posted above is the first and perhaps only example to show the full design elements including the hoof that indicates that it not a human leg that is depicted.  As far as I can determine, nine of these coins are known.  They originate form 3 obverse and 2 reverse dies (punches).  Based on reverse punch wear I can demonstrate that the CNG coin posted above bearing the hoof is the first in the series and the only one known from the first obverse die.  The coin that is posted at the start of the thread is from the third obverse die by which stage the design appears to have become simplified and abstracted, loosing its clear identification with a bull's hind quarter, becoming ambiguous to the extent that it can be associated with human leg.  The significance of the design from the first obverse die showing what appears to be a hoof rather than a foot and represented on one single surviving example of the coinage appears to have been overlooked to date.   

Offline Enodia

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2009, 04:38:44 am »
fascinating research Lloyd. you've taken this much further than i could have imagined, and i do believe you may be on to something.
however...

Quote
The coin that is posted at the start of the thread is from the third obverse die by which stage the design appears to have become simplified and abstracted, loosing its clear identification with a bull's hind quarter, becoming ambiguous to the extent that it can be associated with human leg.

... sticks with me a bit, and for no real reason other than instinct; no historical evidence to the contrary and no sound artistic theory.
but is it typical of Greek art of that time to go from archaic lifelike to classical abstract? to me this almost seems like an exact opposite of the typical evolution, but then i'm no expert.
maybe we can hope that Pat can comment on this for us.

~ Peter

Offline xintaris75

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2009, 04:43:11 am »
I'm absolutely sure, what this symbol haven't relations with coin's nominal. It's symbol, which was used by someone philae, as independent "coat of arms" on shields too. It's exist also in attic vases, so why it can be related with nominal of coins?
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Offline Enodia

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2009, 05:35:02 am »
interesting illustration xintaris, and one which certainly seems to put us back to the original theory.
do you happen to have an image of the particular vase in question?

~ Peter

Offline xintaris75

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2009, 05:45:00 am »
I not found same images online, this one is from Seltman's book. He took it from Gerhard's book, and note what 61 examples of vases with same symbol are cited in Gerhard's book.
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Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2009, 06:08:52 am »
fascinating research Lloyd. you've taken this much further than i could have imagined, and i do believe you may be on to something.
however...

Quote
The coin that is posted at the start of the thread is from the third obverse die by which stage the design appears to have become simplified and abstracted, loosing its clear identification with a bull's hind quarter, becoming ambiguous to the extent that it can be associated with human leg.

... sticks with me a bit, and for no real reason other than instinct; no historical evidence to the contrary and no sound artistic theory.
but is it typical of Greek art of that time to go from archaic lifelike to classical abstract? to me this almost seems like an exact opposite of the typical evolution, but then i'm no expert.
maybe we can hope that Pat can comment on this for us.

~ Peter


Attached is the die succession as I determine it.  I don't have a photo of the Berlin and London Museum specimens, nor BCD Peloponnesos 78 & 79.  However, from the LHS catalogue I can confirm that BCD Peloponnesos 78 &79 appear to be   from dies A2/P1, per the nomenclature I have used in the attachment below.

The argument as to bent human leg versus that of hind quarter of a sacrificial bull calf really turns on the significance placed on 2 factors
1) the interpretation of the sole example of A1/P1 which bears what appears to be an hoof rather than a human foot at the termination of the leg, which does not appear to be a human leg based on the proportions between the joints, but rather bears a close resemblance to that of an immature bull's leg
2) the exclusively recurring bull motif on the obverse of all subsequent classical period coinage of Phlious.

Some may weigh the the depiction of the human leg on Attic ceramics as more significant, but this is another city state and not part of the iconography of Phlious.  Seltman in making the connection to a human leg really weighted this to the fact that he believed the coinage in question was that of Athens, issued in the same period as the Wappenmunzen.  However, Seltman's attribution to Athens fails to take account of the fact that all known find spots of the bent leg obols are in Phliasia and Arcadia.  None have been found in Attica.  There is an interesting discussion of this by Alan Walker in the LHS 96 catalogue page 39.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2009, 06:26:22 am »

... sticks with me a bit, and for no real reason other than instinct; no historical evidence to the contrary and no sound artistic theory.
but is it typical of Greek art of that time to go from archaic lifelike to classical abstract? to me this almost seems like an exact opposite of the typical evolution, but then i'm no expert.
maybe we can hope that Pat can comment on this for us.

~ Peter


Peter,

I forgot to mention that inadvertently I may have overstated the artistic development aspect, in so far as this may reflect nothing more than the skill of the engravers involved. 

Remember that these coins were with one exception struck from one reverse die/punch (P1) and are thus almost contemporaneous, issued over a short time frame in the late 6th Century BC and thus I was incorrect in my wording to suggest an artistic evolution.  Rather skill of the die engravers involved is probably the reason for the differences observed and it is little more than co-incidence that it can be interpreted in a succession from which one might infer increasing abstraction.

Offline xintaris75

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2009, 06:34:24 am »
but this is another city state and not part of the iconography of Phlious. 

Iconography of Phlious (if these coins are from there) is part of Attic. This coin and 61 attic vases - not evidence?
IMHO, Greek history before the Persian wars better addressed by intertribal relations, and not the interstate. This leg is not sign of city, but sign of some human group.
P.S. Seltman attribute coins with leg (silver and electrum) to Phokis-Delphi, not Athens.
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Lloyd Taylor

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2009, 06:51:38 am »
.... and Lambros attributed them to Kranii in Kephaleni! 

weight the provenance data as most indicative of mint attribution. The evidence from the coinage itself and the consistency of the bull motif on the subsequent coinage of Phlious is suggestive of the alternative interpretation of that of the hind quarter of a bull calf.  I am not absolutely certain that its correct, and certainly not dogmatic enough to seek to  drive it down anyone's throat.

Not every one will agree with the alternative hypothesis, but I think it is worth exploring further to see if it has merit and that investigation is something that is very much work in progress, as is that which I have posted on this thread inviting input from others. 

Not everyone will agree but that's life and it makes for an interesting diversity of opinion....part of life's rich tapestry! :)

Offline xintaris75

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Re: The Bent Leg Obol of Phlious?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2009, 07:14:54 am »
A place of issue is interesting, but it's not key for symbol's meaning.
We are have parallels with Attic pottery, which dated older than these coins, really?
Also, we are have confidence of relation of this symbol with triskele.
Can be real hypothesis what this is a symbol of someone philae, which was separates from big attic philae which had triskele symbol?
Can be real, what after separations, they are had problems in Attic, and after all, was forced to going away from Attic?
Maybe, they are found Phlious, maybe not only Phlious.
Theory about partial nominal meaning of symbol non vigorous - same symbol has silver and electrum coins, which has different ratio and weight.
It's just my thoughts...
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