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Author Topic: Caracalla, Herakles COTD  (Read 2547 times)

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Offline whitetd49

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Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« on: October 10, 2005, 05:33:19 pm »
We have a tendency to be attracted to the nice big 4 or 5 assaria pieces (myself included).  Came across this little AE 18 and couldn't resist it.  Cannot remember seeing this one before.

CaracallaAVT K M AV ANTONIN, bust laureate, draped, right.
NIKOPOLITON PROCIC, head of Herakles, right.  Varbanov 2372, Moushmov 1084.  Same dies as WW specimen.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
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Offline slokind

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2005, 01:53:46 pm »
Here are old scans of Septimius's and a more childish looking obverse die for Caracalla.  I like your Caracalla best.  Pat L.
The Septimius is Pick 1385; the Caracalla is Pick 1594.  The head is that of the Weary Herakles; its original was by Lysippos, and in the Baths of Caracalla was found the huge copy known as the Farnese Hercules (Naples) from which the type takes its name.

Offline whitetd49

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2005, 03:24:57 pm »
Thanks Pat!  I had to go find the original from the Baths.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
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Offline slokind

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2005, 05:10:34 pm »
Basel, Antikenmus.  BS 204  Head of a copy of Lysippos's Resting Herakles (Herakles Farnese).  Heroic but not colossal scale, a very attractive copy.
The Baths of Caracalla, ex Farnese, now Naples statue is the 'namepiece' of the type, but it is, well, Caracallan, and it was made for a very large niche in a Three-Tenors-Size Terme.  Among the copies only about 15% over lifesize, presumably the original size, is this head in Basel, which I could photograph all round, including this view not too far off from that of the coins.  Pat L.

Offline whitetd49

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2005, 05:27:37 pm »
I have to give you credit Pat.  Without your expertise in art history, I would never have made the connection between the reverse of these coins and an actual statue apparently commissioned during the reign of Alexander.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
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Offline slokind

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2005, 05:39:45 pm »
So why is it part of numismatics to consider these questions?  Because these emperors and their agents expected most people to be able to recognizie them on the coins.  They are part of the message and also convey an attitude (in reigns and places where they occur) towards their cultural heritage.  I try to remember not to teach art history as such in this Forvm, but I do think that it is important for us to know each other's disciplines so far as we can, that there is no such thing as a watertight sealed discipline, unless you want to stick to hoard statistics.  It is also important for art historians to understand that numismatics is not just hoard statistics and for numismatists to understand that art history is not something that the Junior League does on Saturdays.  So I try to offer what you may want to know: it is overwhelmingly rich, and I wish I had another lifetime!  In return, I make Forvm an ongoing seminar in numismatics in which I have enrolled myself.
Pat

Offline Jochen

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2005, 08:07:58 pm »
I'm so impressed by these discussions! Please keep them so long as you can!
Thank you so much!

Best regards

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2005, 08:40:24 pm »
How do we know, however, that that's specifically the "Weary Hercules" on the coins?
Features, beard, and hair admittedly look similar, but the downward tilt of the head, so characteristic of the statue, is not reproduced on the coins.
Curtis Clay

Offline whitetd49

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2005, 09:12:56 pm »
Now there is a challenge!  I'm not sure the question is answerable however.  First, there is the question of a downward tilt of the head.  I suspect that such a downward tilt would be perceived as a rotation of the entire head,  not easily discerned.  Second, I will support Pat's supposition, the types on much of the coins appear to be based upon archetypes, recognized by at least some portion of the populace.  In human (pop?) psychological  terms, the coins seem to be appealing to recognized glories of the past and attributing them to the current political mileau (Caracalla).  Any hard evidence to support these observations?  No, only patterns.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
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Offline slokind

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Re: Caracalla, Herakles COTD
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 11:13:01 pm »
I daresay that museums less sensitive to the other copies of the statue might have mounted the head without the tilt, and I know that many tourists would instinctively (instincts are not always true) hold their cameras to minimize the tilt.  The engraver of the die, too, may have been working from a cameo or intaglio gem, or he may, quite rightly, have considered how the famous head would look best on a small coin.  The proof (probare, test) is simply to know all the prevalent Herakles types and also to look at other coins of the place and period.  This Herakles type is represented on other Severan coins of Thrace (Philippopolis) and Nicopolis ad I. full length, and the head (reversed) is used for the ktistes head at HadrianopolisPat L.  P.S.  It is different from the Herakles of the dii auspices sestertius of Septimius; that type of Herakles also occurs in the Danubian coins, besides all the Labors poses at Hadrianopolis and elsewhere.
But I don't want to force anyone to study anything they are not drawn to.  I could never be a theoretical physicist because I can't handle the math (my arithmetic is OK).  These things take many years of attention.  That is why, starting late, I do not try to master all of numismatics, despite the temptations of Republican silver and Archaic fractions, just to name two.  Pat L.
Here's a couple:
01 11 02 AE 19  3.9g  Hadrianopolis.  Autonomous.  Head of Lysippic Weary Herakles to l.  Rev., Quite recognizable, the Weary Herakles, with his club and lion skin, to r.  ADRIANO[POLEI]TONCf. the simpler Sear GIC 4832 and SNG Cop 2, 556, where the time of Commodus is (inevitably) suggested, but as B. V. Head, HN, says, p. 287, "Types often referring to the labours of Herakles".
11 04 03 AE 27+  Nicopolis ad Istrum.  Issued by Longinus.  Macrinus, laureate, head to r.  [AV] K M OPEL SEV      MAKRIENOS (same as nos. 1723, 1737, 1741, also with heads).  Rev., nude, bearded Herakles stg. r., his right hand on his hip, his left, with the lion-skin-draped club in his armpit and thus resting on a stone (the pose of the Hercules Farnese).  VP STA LONGINOV NIKOPOLITON PROS IS.  Trait for trait and letter for letter, Pick AMNG I, 1, no. 1759 and Varbanov I, no. 2699; judging from Pick, only the Sofia ex. has equal detail and complete legend, and Varbanov's is similarly struck to this one but more worn.
19 03 03 AE~18  Nicopolis ad IstrumSeptimius Severus, laureate, head to r.  AV KAI S[E]    SEVEROS.  Rev., Farnese type Herakles, stg. r., remarkably true to the typeNIKOPOLI      PROS ISTR.  Not Pick AMNG I, 1 (= Cop SNG 2, no. 267), not one of the three following, but Lanz Auktion 97, May 2000, no. 707 (= Varbanov I, no. 1836).  Both dies seem to match, but the Lanz coin is VF on both sides.
21 03 03 AE 27  Marcianopolis.  Issued by Pontianus.  Macrinus, laureate, and Diadumenian, confronted busts.  AVT K OPELLI SEV MAKREINOS K M OPELLI ANTONEINOS, fuzzy but there.    Rev., Herakles Resting, the Farnese type, to r., with his hand behind his back, the Nemean lion's skin as padding for his armpit over the stump of his club, which rests on a pile of rocks, verifying Pick's description.  VP PONTIANOV (o-u ligate) MAR[KIA]NOPOLEITON, all round (exergue empty); E mark in left fieldPick, AMNG I, 1, p. 243, no. 753, exactly.
** On the little Hadrianopolis, the full-length Herakles is a different prototype; it is the head that is the "Farnese" type.

 

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