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Author Topic: Fake patina  (Read 9080 times)

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Offline areich

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2014, 02:27:46 pm »
Cheated, or even defrauded by someone who habitually does this. There have been numerous threads like this here over the years. Inappropriate perhaps but not incorrect in any way. The root of the problem is that while many dealers truly love ancient coins and ancient history, a small minority are only in it for the money and that they've turned to coins is just coincidence.
Andreas Reich

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2014, 03:49:49 pm »
I can agree with each of Joe's points.    There are, to me, two separate faults to avoid.  One is doing a bad job making the item worse as in the painting posted by Galaxy.  The second is doing a good job and hoping no one will notice. 

We seem to be in a strange situation where there are more people with large amounts of money to spend on coins than there are people interested in learning even a little about them. 

Offline L.C.Sulla

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2014, 04:26:17 pm »


We seem to be in a strange situation where there are more people with large amounts of money to spend on coins than there are people interested in learning even a little about them.  

But that's how it is in reality. More than once I found myself sitting at some dealers shop before auctions, examining lots, while beside me sat some fella with his wife (not being anti feminine here: its just that the following dynamics always involved " a collector and his spouse"....) holding expensive artifacts of starting bids that were 10 times more expensive than all I had to spend on that auction at best. "what do you think honey?" Mr. collector said. "do you think I should take this Egyptian cat sculpture for 6K$?". Mrs. usually answers "If you like it I think you should". After that usually comes the chance for collector to express his lack of knowledge by asking the dealer "Dr. you say this cat is middle kingdom dated?" to which dealer answers " No it is late Roman....". Collector still buy it... two years later its in the auction again. Obviously not all collectors are like that but more than a few are!.
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Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2014, 09:21:46 pm »
The uncleaned coins afficianados should be able to address the question of how frequently "desert patina" is encountered. I haven't read of anyone crowing about such finds in their uncleaned lots!

All of my uncleaned coins came with thick dirt on them.  Most people just attack uncleaned coins with a brass brush leaving no trace of it behind.  By being patient and careful you can leave a dessert "patina" on uncleaned coins but it requires a great deal of patience and some skill.

That is an earthen patina rather than a desert patina which is rare.. To quote from a previous thread.... Technically genuine desert patina is quite rare and does not consist of sand particles (which range in in size 1/16 - 2 mm in size and in the case of desert sand consist of almost pure silica). Rather it is of fine clay size particles consisting of mineral oxides and clay silicates, rather than the pure silica of which sand is composed. Also called desert varnish it is a thin, dark orange, or red to black mineral coating (generally iron and manganese oxides and clay silicates) deposited on pebbles and rocks and most rarely coins on the surface of desert regions. As soil moisture is brought to the surface by capillary action evaporates, dissolved minerals are deposited on the surface.  Wind abrasion removes the softer salts and polishes the patina to a glossy finish. The rate of patina formation is slow and it is considered to most likely take about 2,000 years to form. Because it forms at, or extremely close to the surface, it is unusual to find well preserved coins with such a patina.

Even with authentic patinas, the trade uses and mixes terminolgy quite inappropriately and misleadingly, if not deceptively and that is before we get into fake patinas and "patination". If they were honest about the latter, then "desert patination" would be factually described in the trade as "artificial table-top patination". A desert is nowhere to be seen in this process! Unless of course the table-top was sitting in Arizona, which I can warrant wasn't the case for the coins in this thread.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2014, 09:39:36 pm »
This thread has been notably ignored or avoided by certain big names in the business so it will be up to each of us to decide if that silence implies their approval or displeasure with any particular practice.

... or alternatively it may imply displeasure with the widespread disclosure of its existence as the norm within the approach to "price enhancing patination"! 

Truthfully it should be identified in sales descriptions for what it is - an artifical patina applied to enhance appearance and cover otherwise damaged and ugly surfaces. Anything less than such honest disclosure is deceptive and misleading, in fact illegal under consumer law in some jurisdictions.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2014, 09:44:15 pm »
About 15 years ago when I used to buy uncleaned coins they all had reddish orange dessert patinas.  They may be harder to find now, but there are genuine examples out there...

Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2014, 09:51:21 pm »
Dear Areich
we have such talks on the past.
the coin was described aspatinated, where is the fraud ?
plz choose your words, a fraud when you dont mention the patination, calm down your horses !!!
and it sas that the surface is rough , so it wasent to hide surface problems, I used the exact words CNG used, and dint change it so the collector know it has a rough surface.
it is said patination and it is clear patination, for my self I think it was ugly before, now it is more a life.
I have talks with follow dealers today regarding this, and they said it wasent very clear , I respect that and since English is not my first language I will take from the dealers who speak it clearly the exact language, from now on it will be Desert patina applied, and if you have any suggestions I am all Ears .
thanks every one.
Happy new year .
Salem Alshdaifat

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2014, 11:15:20 pm »
Salem, I think the problem is that "patinated" does not, as you seemed to think, explain that the patina is applied. A coin can be naturally patinated. As you have explained, this may be and English-as-a-second-language issue.  I think your new terminology is a critical improvement.

n.igma, I don't think desert patina is rare. Desert patina is fairly common on coins coming from Syria, Spain and other desert areas. I don't know who you are quoting, but that is just one person's definition. All desert patina IS earthen patina, but not all earthen patina is desert patina. The biggest difference between desert patina and other earthen patinas is that desert patina comes from the desert (it also happens to be very tough and often attractive). It definitely does NOT take almost 2000 years on the surface for a desert patina to form. Many coins with desert patina are not that old.
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Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2014, 11:30:58 pm »
surely Joe I will use in the future a more detailed language, I will put (Desert patina Applied ).
and I didnt at any point wanted to change the thoughts about the coin surface since I mentioned that it has a rough surface.
is that clear in your thoughts?
Happy new year Joe and every one.
Salem

Offline Molinari

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2014, 11:34:04 pm »
I think it is an appropriate change.  I'm glad you're doing it.

Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2014, 11:41:48 pm »
Thanks Molinari, I for sure will use this term from now on.
happy new year.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2014, 01:56:02 am »
surely Joe I will use in the future a more detailed language, I will put (Desert patina Applied ).
and I didnt at any point wanted to change the thoughts about the coin surface since I mentioned that it has a rough surface.
is that clear in your thoughts?
Happy new year Joe and every one.
Salem

Happy New Year to you and yours too. 

I think the description should be clear enough that, if or when the customer sees the "before" photo, they are not surprised or disappointed. I recommend saying something like, "Professionally restored. Applied desert patina fills pitted fields. Photos of the coin before professional restoration available on request."
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Offline areich

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2014, 06:47:38 am »
On second thought, there's no use in discussing this further.
Andreas Reich

Offline Paul B11

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2023, 11:17:04 am »
New member here. Back to collecting after decades. I got a small hoard of coins in North Africa in 1972, so I know what real coins are like. I have worked with several of them that have perfect real desert patina (and a lot of junk coins).

On EBay, I am losing my mind. Almost everyone has been faked somehow and I am trying my best to weed out the dubious ones. All were bought from “reputable dealers.”

Most recently, a Judean coin came in with nice desert patina. I spit in my palm and rubbed the coin for about three seconds and much came off. 2000+ year old encrustation does not do this. I had to use electrolysis and rubbing with baking soda for a week on a similar coin to get it where I wanted. Don’t hate me for enough cleaning to identify!

In this case the coin seems genuine, as far as I can tell, but the patina added. This is a well-known reputable dealer who likely was not willing to rub the coin like I did. I’m letting it go because I wanted the history and would have bought without the patina probably.

I am only trusting coins that are not great right now. Usually uncleaned lots, etc.

☹️😩😔

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2023, 03:12:52 pm »
Oh no, the sky is falling....

Not a great first post. 
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