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Author Topic: Fake patina  (Read 9079 times)

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Offline areich

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Fake patina
« on: January 02, 2014, 04:21:29 am »
Hi all, here's an improved coin with nice 'earthen patination', which, as an explanation to our newer collectors, is not the same as 'desert patina'.
This is what it currently looks like.

Quote
Alexander of Carthage. Usurper, AD 308-310. Æ Follis (20mm, 5.01 g, 12h). Carthago (Carthage) mint. IMP ALEXANDER P F AVG, laureate head right / ROMAE A ETERNAE, Roma seated left in hexastyle temple, holding globe and scepter; PK. RIC VI 70; Salama type VII, portrait style G. VF, somewhat rough surfaces. Desert Patination ,Very rare.
 
 
quot from CNG :
L. Domitius Alexander led a short-lived revolt against Maxentius from 308 to 311, holding Africa and Sardinia. There is little known about this usurper, but there is evidence in an inscription (CIL VIII, 22183) that he and Constantine allied themselves in opposition to Maxentius. P. Salama in "Recherches numismatiques sur l'usurpateur africain L. Domitius Alexander," Proceedings of the International Numismatic Congress 1973, p. 365, note 2, suggests that at the latest, the pact was entered into by autumn of 310.
Andreas Reich

Offline areich

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2014, 04:22:54 am »
And here's the coin as it was offered by CNG. This fraud supplies a number of big and supposedly reputable dealers so you better be very careful.
Andreas Reich

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2014, 05:08:46 am »
The face has been tooled as well  :o

Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2014, 06:51:38 am »
Nice mark-up - $3,000 uplift for a bit of sand and glue applied as "patina". People (err maybe that should be suckers) just love that "desert patina" and will pay big bucks for it!
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2014, 06:53:47 am »
For the benefit of us 'newer collectors' could you explain in words or pictures how to tell a glued up dirt fake from a coin that was just cleaned down to a point that the 'genuine' dirt remains in the recesses.  Doe this last category exist or are substantially all the coins we see crafted?

Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2014, 06:58:43 am »
.. This fraud supplies a number of big and supposedly reputable dealers so you better be very careful.

I thought the dealer with the sand and glue was classified as a reputable dealer, one of many on a popular numismatic vendors' platform and even a contributor to this august discussion board?
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2014, 07:09:20 am »
For the benefit of us 'newer collectors' ....

  :) Yeah right....

...  could you explain in words or pictures how to tell a glued up dirt fake from a coin that was just cleaned down to a point that the 'genuine' dirt remains in the recesses.  Doe this last category exist or are substantially all the coins we see crafted?

Before and after pictures sure help.

I am sure from reading ariech's past threads he is better at discriminating ral from fake "patina" than most and some discussion is to be found in several threads on the board e.g. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=57048.0 ... which includes this gem that answers the question:

Quote from: Lloyd Taylor on November 11, 2010, 09:17:21 pm
What is the Source country of "Desert patina" coins?? (The dark ones with the sandy-tan patina) Where do they come from??
I hate to ask a stupid question (but I will anyway! lol) but isn't a desert patina just pretty dirt? The true patina is the black on the coin beneath...right?

Not a stupid question at all, but a good one to ask.  However, many wont like the answer and remember that as you observe that a lot of what is incorrectly described as desert patina is nothing of the sort, just crud hanging onto a partially, or poorly cleaned coin.

Technically genuine desert patina is quite rare and does not consist of sand particles (which range in in size 1/16 - 2 mm in size and in the case of desert sand consist of almost pure silica). Rather it is of fine clay size particles consisting of mineral oxides and clay silicates, rather than the pure silica of which sand is composed. Also called desert varnish it is a thin, dark orange, or red to black mineral coating (generally iron and manganese oxides and clay silicates) deposited on pebbles and rocks and most rarely coins on the surface of desert regions. As soil moisture is brought to the surface by capillary action evaporates, dissolved minerals are deposited on the surface.  Wind abrasion removes the softer salts and polishes the patina to a glossy finish. The rate of patina formation is slow and it is considered to most likely take about 2,000 years to form. Because it forms at, or extremely close to the surface, it is unusual to find well preserved coins with such a patina.

The multicolored often near fluorescent stuff we see on most coins described as desert patina is artificial. It is applied by those seeking to enhance the visual appeal and thus value of coins in the eyes of the less knowledgeable collector. As such, it originates in just about every country on earth where there is a trade in ancient coins and the environmental conditions for its origin are nothing more than quiet, well lit work bench.



All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2014, 07:10:33 am »
The uncleaned coins afficianados should be able to address the question of how frequently "desert patina" is encountered. I haven't read of anyone crowing about such finds in their uncleaned lots!
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Lee S

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2014, 07:14:10 am »
To be fair, while I obviously disagree with the practise... It has resulted in a much prettier coin... There is some artistry involved in this process!    

Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2014, 07:22:41 am »
To be fair, while I obviously disagree with the practise... It has resulted in a much prettier coin... There is some artistry involved in this process!    

True, hence the higher price.  This practice of "painting" coins to lift detail is extremely common with the generally shabby Judean series. Is it a legitimate improvement or an element of fakery?  NumisWiki details the issue under Fakes, Forgeries and Frauds ... https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Ancient%20Coin%20Collecting%20101   ..."Other coins are modified in one way or another to improve their value, but when not properly labeled are a fraud and should be avoided. Modifications may include the application of a false patina, after over cleaning, painting to add or highlight details that are not on the original coin..."
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline areich

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2014, 07:35:32 am »
Hence the name 'con artist'.  ;)

Doug, it is not easy to put into words and, as I've said elsewhere before, I don't claim to be able to spot every fake sand patina and not falsely condemn a single genuine one. With that out of the way, a few things that stand out are that this fake patina is often shiny and has a coarser appearance than genuine sand patina, with bumps and bubbles. The sand patina as a whole is often very regular, like this coin for example, which I find very convincing.



Here's an example of the coarseness. This one was even identified as having an artificial sand patina.



This is a particularly bad example where you can see the artificial patina beneath the artificial sand patina.



I can't prove that they are by the same hand, of course, but I personally have no doubt.


Andreas Reich

Offline mauseus

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2014, 07:39:56 am »
Hi,

Yes, it is a false patina on the Alexander of Carthage coin but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion). If you look for the thread on a Cleopatra bronze there is a differentiation between "desert patina" and "desert patination", the latter being a false patina, the former being natural. However, these two phrases are very similar and open to misunderstanding and are often interchanged. We need to have a clarity in the sales description when a false patina has been applied.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline n.igma

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2014, 07:40:04 am »
Another before and after with a $4,000 mark-up for "artistry" described as Desert Patination in the attribution/description! Certainly a very nice paint job.  But a little misleading, if not naughty to describe it as Desert Patination in my opinion.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline areich

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2014, 07:45:19 am »
Hi,

Yes, it is a false patina on the Alexander of Carthage coin but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion). If you look for the thread on a Cleopatra bronze there is a differentiation between "desert patina" and "desert patination", the latter being a false patina, the former being natural. However, these two phrases are very similar and open to misunderstanding and are often interchanged. We need to have a clarity in the sales description when a false patina has been applied.

Regards,

Mauseus


Do you truly believe the vendor uses the term 'desert patination' in the belief that most customers know that it means 'fake sand patina glued onto the ruin of a coin to hide the defects' or, like it is always used, to mislead the majority of collectors who don't know the difference? Is it a term you yourself would use and feel good about it, feel that you had honestly described the coin with it?

I would say he tries hard not to describe it honestly, in which case a number of clear words, like fake, artificial etc. are available.
Andreas Reich

Offline mauseus

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2014, 07:52:27 am »
Hi Andreas,

That is why I was urging for clarity in description so the buyer knows what they are getting. As I said there is often interchange of description and a lack, currently, of knowledge in the use of the terms. I would also suggest that the blackness of the Uranius coin in its "original" state above and, perhaps the Alexander too, is the result of a false treatment such as liver of sulphur (which would again normally go undocumented in a sales description).

Regards,

Mauseus

  

Offline areich

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2014, 08:00:55 am »
I was confused by your statement that the
Quote
but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion)
. Can anybody, unless they're 'playing devil's advocate' really have the opinion that the seller is doing anything but trying hard to hide what he's done?

If anybody thinks that, I'd like them to come out and say so.
Andreas Reich

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2014, 08:13:20 am »
I was confused by your statement that the
Quote
but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion)
. Can anybody, unless they're 'playing devil's advocate' really have the opinion that the seller is doing anything but trying hard to hide what he's done?

If anybody thinks that, I'd like them to come out and say so.

I do not collect bronze coins; reading the description I would not understand that the term "patination" means artificial patina. Quoting text from wikipedia: "The chemical process by which a patina forms is called patination, and a work of art coated by a patina is said to be patinated".

Offline mauseus

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2014, 08:15:25 am »
Hi Andreas,

I certainly have no opinion to disclose whether I think the vendor is trying to disguise what has been done to the coin. I was merely pointing out that the language is unclear but used in the context in the parameters of the definition he espoused in the thread I cited. The addition of "tion" does have consequences to the meaning of what has been done and the community at large may not understand, particularly as the phrases patina and patination are, as paparoupa notes, interchanged at times.

Regards,

Mauseus  

Offline L.C.Sulla

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2014, 08:23:01 am »
.. This fraud supplies a number of big and supposedly reputable dealers so you better be very careful.

I thought the dealer with the sand and glue was classified as a reputable dealer, one of many on a popular numismatic vendors' platform and even a contributor to this august discussion board?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I read here on the forum somewhere he (the dealer) saying that the "Modern Desert patina added to coins originated in the middle east is a common phenomenon". At least with regards to "Jewish" (or Biblical related) coins is a sort of hobby I have to follow up on items sold in actions and bought by dealers and then looking for them (and almost always fining them) on that famous ancient coin Borsa, after they were improved using the fake desert patina and sometimes more.  
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2014, 08:25:24 am »
The uncleaned coins afficianados should be able to address the question of how frequently "desert patina" is encountered. I haven't read of anyone crowing about such finds in their uncleaned lots!

All of my uncleaned coins came with thick dirt on them.  Most people just attack uncleaned coins with a brass brush leaving no trace of it behind.  By being patient and careful you can leave a dessert "patina" on uncleaned coins but it requires a great deal of patience and some skill.

I personally think that the coins posted here look better but that still doesn't mean it's okay.  Any fake patina should be clearly disclosed.  However this particular dealer is not the only one that uses vague words to describe the practice.  In fact a very big name in numismatics regularly uses the term "Patinated" to describe an artificial patina.  Clear as mud right...

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2014, 09:48:13 am »
At this point I am less concerned with the question of accepting or avoiding coins with sandy surfaces than whether I have a right to expect anything from the dealers I buy from and the dealer groups that certify them.   Perhaps a good test will come when the buyers of these improved coins try to sell them back to these same dealers.  This thread has been notably ignored or avoided by certain big names in the business so it will be up to each of us to decide if that silence implies their approval or displeasure with any particular practice.  I will continue to buy coins that I suspect or know to have been 'improved' but I will try to be more careful to pay the admittedly defective price rather than being first to finance blindly the upgrades.   The only way a practice like this will be ended is if those doing it find it unprofitable.  


Offline Molinari

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2014, 12:04:04 pm »
I agree that "patination" is far too ambiguous, and deliberately misleading customers.  I'm not entirely opposed to the practice itself, if it is very clearly described, but as such it's unacceptable, in my opinion.


Offline Galaxy

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2014, 12:28:03 pm »
Ecce homo


Offline areich

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2014, 01:46:50 pm »
The coin has been removed. A very small victory for collectors but a victory nonetheless.  :)
Andreas Reich

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Fake patina
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2014, 01:49:22 pm »
...This thread has been notably ignored or avoided by certain big names in the business so it will be up to each of us to decide if that silence implies their approval or displeasure with any particular practice...

Perhaps that is because the title of the thread was inappropriate.  I have corrected it.

I don't disagree with darkening with liver of sulfur. I don't strongly disagree adding a little dirt to highlight details. I even think smoothing raised bumps is OK (but not pits). Using dirt (or anything) to fill pits and hide flaws is definitely wrong. It might be OK to sell it this way and say "professionally restored, earthen fill covers rough fields and pitting." If I bought it and then saw the before photo, I would certainly feel cheated.
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