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Author Topic: My Taras collection  (Read 66765 times)

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Offline Enodia

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30!
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2014, 12:38:36 am »
two new Tarentine coins to add today. they are in fact the 29th and 30th coins from this city in my collection. since i separated this thread out from from my regular gallery thread at 15 coins, i thought this represented a sort of landmark.
anyway...

the first is a weird little fraction, with 'little' being the key word. this is now the smallest coin in my collection, coming in at a whopping 0.16g!...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-106877
this is another of the five or six types which seem atypical for Taras, but are fascinating none-the-less.

the next, number 30, is from right here at Forvm. it is another fraction, ridiculously small, and yet almost three times bigger than the previous coin! this one is a silver trimorion, or 3/4 obol, and is the second of the type in my collection (the other having the horse's heads facing differently)...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-106878

i didn't start out to collect Tarentine coins specifically, but it seems to have turned out that way. it has been an interesting ride for me though, and i already can't wait for my 50th coin post!
i hope you like them too.

~ Peter




Offline Jay GT4

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2014, 12:45:22 am »
Always enjoy your coins Peter...these ones are tiny!

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2014, 12:49:26 am »
thanks Jay!   :) 

yeah they really are small. i've seen paint chips which were thicker than that cresent coin!


Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2014, 02:29:38 pm »
greetings all!

i haven't added any coins to my collection in quite some time, but today i present one of the two coins i got for my birthday.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-113125
this one is a peculier coin from Taras, struck during Hannibal's occupation of the city from 212-209 BC. at this time the Tarentine mint had not produced any coins for 15 years or so, having been shut down by the Romans circa 228. but upon entering the city in 213-212 Hannibal reopened the mint and began to strike silver coins once again, although on the smaller Punic standard and of greatly debased artistic style.
these 'half shekels' never exceeded 4 grams, nearly half the weight of the earlier didrachms. in fact Sear refers to these coins as drachms, although no drachms struck at Taras ever resembled these types. the fact that the old didrachm type was chosen suggests two things to me. the first and most likely is that the horseman/dolphin rider imagery was intended to inspire confidence in the new reduced types. the second is my own personal hope that this was somehow Hannibal's way of giving Rome the 'one-fingered salute'.
  :)  
whatever the cause, the coins of this period represent the final emissions of this formerly prolific city, and it is too bad that they failed to do justice to the once beautiful pieces struck by Italy's greatest Greek polis.

in any case, while not particularly rare these coins of the Punic occupation are an important addition to any serious collection of Tarentine coins, and i'm certainly glad to have this one in mine.
i hope you agree.

~ Peter

Offline Carausius

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2014, 02:48:16 pm »
Thanks for that  background, Peter. Very interesting issue. The surfaces of your coin give the appearance of over-striking (or perhaps the lighting is just accentuating irregular surfaces). Is your coin over-struck and are these half - shekels commonly over-struck?

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2014, 03:43:21 pm »
Hi Peter,
Congratulations for this new acquisition, and thank you very much for your interesting (as usual) writing+++

P.S. I would not consider the "Messapian" hypothesis as reliable.... Sokannas is a semitic name, and the symbols of the lemniscate palm and eagle tell us about a war situation in which the attributes of power and victory were crucial for political propaganda, so IMHO the coin was undoubtedly minted in Taras during the punic occupation.

Best :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2014, 04:22:48 pm »
... I would not consider the "Messapian" hypothesis as reliable.... Sokannas is a semitic name, and the symbols of the lemniscate palm and eagle tell us about a war situation in which the attributes of power and victory were crucial for political propaganda, so IMHO the coin was undoubtedly minted in Taras during the punic occupation.

hi Taras, and thank you for the comment!   :)

yes, Sokannos is definitely a Semetic name, but even further i cannot imagine such a position being entrusted to a people whose mercenary relationship was at best tenuous. a marriage of convenience more than one of faith, imo. "The enemy of my enemy" seems the more likely basis of any agreement with the indigenous peoples.

political propoganda is an important observation too, and striling an entirely new coinage based on the old designs may very well have been an attempt to renew a civic pride which had greatly dissolved in Taras at this point in time. pro- and anti- Roman factions were dividing the populace and anything to unify the power structure behind him would absolutely be to Hannibal's advantage. the subterfuge and intrigues which allowed him to enter the city in the first place are a testiment to the tensions of the day.

Carausius, i honestly don't know of any overstrikes from this period, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. it was, as discussed above, a time of war, so any flan in a storm?
when i first saw the coin at auction i thought the marks were scratches, and the description of "removed from jewelry" lent credence to this. however in hand the marks are definitely raised, so the possibilty of an overstrike certainly exists. in fact 'upon further review' i think i can imagine the image of a little man in the field at 5:00 reminiscent of the standing Apollo from Kaulonia. but it could also be nothing but my bad eyes creating something logical out of nothing more than a slightly damaged die.
does anyone else see this? i am curious now.

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2014, 06:20:20 pm »
i think i can imagine the image of a little man in the field at 5:00 reminiscent of the standing Apollo from Kaulonia. but it could also be nothing but my bad eyes creating something logical out of nothing more than a slightly damaged die.
does anyone else see this? i am curious now.

~ Peter

Peter, I think this is impossible, Kaulonia never minted ar coins on this weight standard. For the Achaean standard a drachm was a third-stater, and a stater was 8 g.
Bye ;)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2014, 09:41:46 pm »
sorry Nico, i must not have made myself clear.
i wasn't identifying the undertype (if there is one) as being from Kaulonia, just that the funny shape at that position reminds me of that figure of Apollo. for that matter it also looks like a tiny Athena Promachus, or perhaps Ajax, or none of the above. keep in mind that i am having eye surgery next month, so what i think i see is definitely subject to scrutiny.

~ Peter   8)

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2014, 04:51:22 am »
Oh I did not understand, sorry Peter.
In fact those lines and reliefs can give everyone the illusion of recognizable forms, making us think of erased secondary symbols or even some undertype, but IMO those undefined signs tell us of an hasty and inaccurate engraving of dies, or maybe some problems with the production of blanks, in fact we find those features on many specimens for the type, as you can see in the attached images.

Good luck with the surgery my friend, your eyes are still smart, and after I am sure they will be even more ;)

All the best :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2014, 05:15:36 am »
thank you Nico, for your well wishes and even moreso for your information. i am glad to see these similar examples. i would not have had a problem with it being an overstrike, but this is a much more satisfying solution.
there have been other similar discussions (but not quite the same) regarding the strange flow lines found on Tarentine didrachms, and this can perhaps be filed with them.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=58276.0
however the question remains, what causes these anomalies?

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2014, 06:08:24 am »
I think in this case we are not looking to a problem occurred in phase of minting (flow lines), I think the problem was antecedent, in the production of dies.
In fact you can see that the same signs recur in different specimens...

Offline Carausius

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2014, 08:55:28 am »
Thanks Nico. Those photos clearly answered my question. The marks are definitely on the die.

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2014, 10:57:07 am »
Quote from: Carausius on October 04, 2014, 08:55:28 am
Thanks Nico. Those photos clearly answered my question. The marks are definitely on the die.

 +++

bye :)

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2014, 11:13:32 am »
Hi Enodia,

Congratulations on your many beautiful Taras coins.

Meepzorp

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2014, 12:29:39 pm »
thank you!
it's been an interesting evolution.   :)

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2014, 01:27:50 am »
i was lucky enough to win two new coins at auction a few weeks back.

new addition #1...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-114871

here is a didrachm from the early 4th century BC, struck during the time of Archytas. i'd like to say it looks much better in hand, but the picture is a pretty good depiction. it's still quite nice though, and is also very rare. Fischer-Bossert sites only seven known examples. the engraver's signature is also peculiar, with the large 'H' on the body of the dolphin being different in style than most artists' signatures i've seen. even the pose of the dolphin rider is unusual.
this was a coin i just couldn't pass up, and i hope you like it too.

~ Peter


Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2014, 03:10:12 am »
and new addition #2...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-114880

this is an interesting diobol on a number of levels, including scarcity, relevance, etc. but the real reason i bought it is aesthetics. that and because i'm a sucker for facing head coins.

take a look!

~ Peter

Offline gordian_guy

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2014, 06:46:05 pm »


Two very nice additions, congratulations!!

c.rhodes

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2014, 09:32:27 pm »
thanks gordian_guy!   :) 

here's a new one, a tiny tiny Tarentine fraction i just received this week...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-115695

this little coin is only 0.15 grams! it's actually quite difficult to pick up and turn over, being about as thick as a sheet of heavy paper. i have to apologise for the image though. i tried and tried to get a better one, but it's just too small and darkly toned.

i had also hoped that once i got the coin in hand i would be able to make the arguement that the portrait on the obverse was of Dionysus, rather than the usual Satyra, Taras, or "female head right". the kantharos on the reverse certainly strikes a Dionysian chord, and His cult was very strong in Taras.
but alas, i see nothing to convince me that this is so.

would've been fun to talk about though, no?    ;)

~ Peter


Offline Molinari

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2014, 10:21:24 pm »
Wow, that is amazingly small.  Boggles the mind to think about how they engraved the dies.

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2014, 10:26:48 pm »
this was my thought too Nick. my friend looked at it and her first impression, of all things, was how detailed the beaded border was.
how the hell did they produce these little fractions?
i can hardly pick it up, so how did they get them out of the die at a production-line rate? and how small were the hammers they struck these with? i'm only guessing but i imagine these were struck with scissor-type dies rather than the usual anvil type.

boggled indeed,
~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2014, 11:01:47 am »
Hi Peter, congratulations for the acquisition. I love tarentine fractionals, and I wish I could have one beautiful and rare like that in my collection.
Thanks for sharing.  :)

i'm only guessing but i imagine these were struck with scissor-type dies rather than the usual anvil type.

boggled indeed,
~ Peter

Hard to say. If so, but I could be wrong, dies should have the same orientation for many specimens.
That is a very interesting matter, the technique of minting for smallest ar fractionals. Does anyone have suggestions or readings to recommend?

bye :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2015, 02:23:17 pm »
thank you Nico, although you have plenty of enviable coins in your collection!   :)

today i'm showing off my latest addition, a diobol from Mr. Vlasto's own collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-116814

this is the plate coin from the Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto by Oscar Ravel, #1296. i hit the 'Buy' button for this one last week just before signing on here and seeing the new 'Plate Coins' gallery. how's that for serendipity?
but besides the fact that this is a plate coin i just really love the detail, especially Athena's helmet.
so i'm pretty happy with my first purchase of the new year.  8)

~ Peter

Offline Molinari

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2015, 02:25:58 pm »
A great start to 2015!  Congrats!

 

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