Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Thoughts on Fourrees?  (Read 798 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jslade

  • Guest
Thoughts on Fourrees?
« on: June 09, 2022, 10:08:13 pm »
Hello,

I'm curious to know what people's thoughts are on having Fourres in your collection. Do you avoid them entirely, are they oddities you keep separate like an error coin, or would you use them to round out  a collection if you couldn't get an "authentic" coin of the type you are looking for?

JSlade

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5129
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2022, 07:33:43 am »
Hi JS,

For me, the third reason is most true. They do tend to be cheaper.

Meepzorp

Offline Ron C2

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Qvod perierat adhvc exstat nvmmorvm
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2022, 07:35:30 am »
Personally I avoid them. Not because of any aversion to their legitimate history, they just don't fall into my narrow areas of interest.
My Ancient Coin Gallery: Click here

R. Cormier, Ottawa

Offline ChefStu22

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2022, 07:45:19 am »
Hi JS,

I don't avoid them, I won't actively search for them unless the original of the coin I desire is hard to get or particularly expensive.

Happy collecting.

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2022, 08:05:56 am »
Depends. 

Most of my fourees are treated as oddities and go into one of my "cabinet of curiosities" trays along with the limes denarii.  The exception is my Caesar Aeneas carrying Anchises fouree denarius which was a way for me to have a coin with incredible historical and mythological significance for a decent price.

That coin has decent eye appeal, whereas some of my other fourees are in such poor condition that they are only interesting to see how a fouree worked.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline PeterD

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
  • omnium curiositatum explorator
    • Historia
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2022, 09:37:54 am »
Fourees and general imitative coins are a side interest for me. However, I seem to have collected quite a few. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia/imitative.htm
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline Jan P

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 405
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2022, 12:21:03 pm »
Just a question:
Were there not any fourees which are brought legally in to circulation?(Inflation).
And if that was the case: Are that not just coins with a different production process.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2022, 12:38:33 pm »
All ancient fourrees appear to be unofficial, illegal counterfeits. Some have proposed some were struck at official mints, but I don't find their discussions even slightly convincing. There may be some exception, but I don't know of it.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

jslade

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2022, 03:05:34 pm »
Thanks for all of the feedback. It sounds like a fairly significant portion of the community is willing to collect fourree, at least under certain scenarios. As a follow-up question, how much less do you feel it's reasonable to pay for a fourree version of a standard coin? 25%, 50%? For the purposes of this question, I'm assuming we're talking about a decent looking fourre that's hard to distinguish from the real thing at first glance, not one of the ones that look like they have gangrene.

Regarding the question of who was making fourres, it seems like the resources required to make these debased coins would still be fairly considerable. Is there any data or theories on who was making them? Was it wealthy artisans, criminal gangs, or possibly far flung provincial governors?

JSlade

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2022, 05:02:42 pm »
I thought that there were cases where fourees were made with the same dies as proper coins, but I may be wrong.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline PMah

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Qui risus classe devicta multas ipsi lacrimas...
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2022, 11:37:09 pm »
I like them.   They are just as authentically ancient artifacts as official issues. They are  made by different but related processes, and possibly could have been made by the same workers. 
     They seem to carry the taint of "fraud" with them, even though a disclosed fouree isn't a fraud on the modern buyer.  They also seem to carry the nearly moronic taint of not being full precious metal,  that the "bullion" value of a denarius,  maybe $2.50 current silver, is something that will enable you to buy gas in the zombie apocalypse.
      Fourees should be rarer than the prototype, all other things being equal.   They pose interesting puzzles of numismatic and social interest, at least to me. 
     The main downsides are that most detected fourees will have a broken or corroded surface and so aren't pretty, and, since many collectors avoid them, the resale opportunities are not as robust as official issues.
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2022, 11:55:32 pm »
I avoid them, but I do not avoid "barbaric" imitations, as long as the coin is described as such. And I think I have become fairly good at recognizing them. To me, the barbaric coins are separate and unique and usually not what I personally would call counterfeits. They may copy official coins, but in no way could have been passed as official versions. If I am wrong about this notion, I am happy to hear counterarguments. As far as I know, I have no fourees in my collection. If I did, they would be in the same section of my collection as official issues (with fouree status noted), as is the one contemporary imitation I have (and if I had known I was buying a contemporary imitation in this particular case, I would not have bought it, but it isn't a fouree). Barbaric coins I put in their own sections based on where they are from, just as I do with official coins.

Virgil

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5129
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2022, 03:53:01 am »
I thought that there were cases where fourees were made with the same dies as proper coins, but I may be wrong.

SC

Hi folks,

Yes, I think that is true. I remember reading that some fouree coins were struck using official dies stolen from official mints.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5129
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2022, 04:05:14 am »
...how much less do you feel it's reasonable to pay for a fourree version of a standard coin? 25%, 50%? For the purposes of this question, I'm assuming we're talking about a decent looking fourre that's hard to distinguish from the real thing at first glance, not one of the ones that look like they have gangrene.

JSlade

Hi JS,

Technically, we are not allowed to discuss prices here in Forum. It is against the rules. And I am a moderator of this section of Forum.

However, I can see your genuine curiosity in this matter, and you seem to be relatively new to the hobby. And I like to help newcomers as much as I can, as many long-term Forum members do. Also, you did ask the question in general terms (which is probably still against the rules).

Here is my answer: I will state that your question is extremely difficult (and almost impossible) to answer. You should always pay whatever a coin is worth to you. Obviously, if a fouree coin is in your specific area of collecting, and if you have a "hole to fill", and if you have been trying to get that specific type for 20 years or more, then you probably are going to be willing to pay considerably more for that coin than some who is just looking to purchase it a as "curiosity piece".

Meepzorp

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2022, 09:43:49 am »
No, I don't believe there has ever been a die match to a struck fouree, although some were obviously made with transfer dies.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2022, 01:37:21 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on June 11, 2022, 04:05:14 am
Technically, we are not allowed to discuss prices here in Forum. It is against the rules. And I am a moderator of this section of Forum.

The intent of that rule is not to prevent general discussions about prices, but rather to stop discussions about how much a particular coin or type is worth. Those discussions ALWAYS get stupid, with someone bragging about how they bought a $50 coin for $5, someone in Bulgaria suggesting everyone should be able to buy at their local price, or someone finding an ugly example and suggesting the same price for a nice coin. Seriously, it happened EVERY time until I banned it. 

I also generally think discussion about the coin business, buying and selling, etc. is boring. I prefer history, geography, mythology, numismatics, etc., to trade related topics. But that is just my opinion, not any sort of rule. 
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Bill W4

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2022, 04:58:29 pm »
"I'm curious to know what people's thoughts are on having Fourres in your collection. "                                                                                                       
   I don't look for them but do own one which I inadvertently purchased.  It's a very nice coin and almost a perfect example of a fouree that doesn't detract  from the coins appearance.  It's in my collection and will stay there next to a non fouree if I can ever find one.
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2022, 06:06:54 pm »
I see no harm in having recognized fourrees in your collection. Fourrees add to our understanding of ancient coins, ancient economies and ancient forgeries.  I bought a fourree recently which is described in my gallery here: 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=167248

It came from the Duke of Northumberland's collection and was described in Admiral Smyth's 1856 catalogue of that old collection.  I'm happy to have it.

Offline Bill W4

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2022, 08:13:38 pm »
MY feelings exactly;  Actually Joe has nice ones for sale now but they are way out of my price range.
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!

Offline ChefStu22

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2022, 04:08:32 am »
I have just looked at yours Michael and it's a beauty nice catch

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

jslade

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2022, 08:11:51 pm »
Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen these yet. I also appreciate that you put the word "fourree" right at the front if the coin description. I've seen plenty of listings where a coin is just described as a denarius of so-and-so and you have to read through the description for the term "fourree" or the phrase "contemporary plated imitation".

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2022, 07:41:52 pm »
I don't usually (never) have a selection of fourree plated denarii like that. Just last week I added an ancient counterfeit for each of the 12 Caesars. Three have sold already. The consignor bought them as an single auction lot.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Tom Mullally

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Thoughts on Fourrees?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2022, 05:10:54 pm »
I've never collected fourrees, limes, fakes, or any other "black cabinet" coins but I used to collect the Roman Republican series by the moneyer L. Papius.  I had amassed about two dozen coins of the type, all with different symbols, but interestingly, about half of them were fourrees.  I found it interesting that the prevailing theory as to why some republican denarii were serrate was to thwart counterfeiting, apparently that wasn't the reason! (Or, at least, it didn't have the effect they were looking for!)

I also have had the opportunity, twice, to study a fourree Eid Mar denarius. That's a coin I would certainly consider owning as a fourree since I know a real one will never be in my budget.

Tom
Tom Mullally

Classical Numismatic Group

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity