FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
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Hi all, here's an improved coin with nice 'earthen patination', which, as an explanation to our newer collectors, is not the same as 'desert patina'.
This is what it currently looks like.
Alexander of Carthage. Usurper, AD 308-310. Æ Follis (20mm, 5.01 g, 12h). Carthago (Carthage) mint. IMP ALEXANDER P F AVG, laureate head right / ROMAE A ETERNAE, Roma seated left in hexastyle temple, holding globe and scepter; PK. RIC VI 70; Salama type VII, portrait style G. VF, somewhat rough surfaces. Desert Patination ,Very rare.
quot from CNG :
L. Domitius Alexander led a short-lived revolt against Maxentius from 308 to 311, holding Africa and Sardinia. There is little known about this usurper, but there is evidence in an inscription (CIL VIII, 22183) that he and Constantine allied themselves in opposition to Maxentius. P. Salama in "Recherches numismatiques sur l'usurpateur africain L. Domitius Alexander," Proceedings of the International Numismatic Congress 1973, p. 365, note 2, suggests that at the latest, the pact was entered into by autumn of 310.
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And here's the coin as it was offered by CNG. This fraud supplies a number of big and supposedly reputable dealers so you better be very careful.
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The face has been tooled as well :o
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Nice mark-up - $3,000 uplift for a bit of sand and glue applied as "patina". People (err maybe that should be suckers) just love that "desert patina" and will pay big bucks for it!
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For the benefit of us 'newer collectors' could you explain in words or pictures how to tell a glued up dirt fake from a coin that was just cleaned down to a point that the 'genuine' dirt remains in the recesses. Doe this last category exist or are substantially all the coins we see crafted?
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.. This fraud supplies a number of big and supposedly reputable dealers so you better be very careful.
I thought the dealer with the sand and glue was classified as a reputable dealer, one of many on a popular numismatic vendors' platform and even a contributor to this august discussion board?
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For the benefit of us 'newer collectors' ....
:) Yeah right....
... could you explain in words or pictures how to tell a glued up dirt fake from a coin that was just cleaned down to a point that the 'genuine' dirt remains in the recesses. Doe this last category exist or are substantially all the coins we see crafted?
Before and after pictures sure help.
I am sure from reading ariech's past threads he is better at discriminating ral from fake "patina" than most and some discussion is to be found in several threads on the board e.g. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=57048.0 ... which includes this gem that answers the question:
What is the Source country of "Desert patina" coins?? (The dark ones with the sandy-tan patina) Where do they come from??
I hate to ask a stupid question (but I will anyway! lol) but isn't a desert patina just pretty dirt? The true patina is the black on the coin beneath...right?
Not a stupid question at all, but a good one to ask. However, many wont like the answer and remember that as you observe that a lot of what is incorrectly described as desert patina is nothing of the sort, just crud hanging onto a partially, or poorly cleaned coin.
Technically genuine desert patina is quite rare and does not consist of sand particles (which range in in size 1/16 - 2 mm in size and in the case of desert sand consist of almost pure silica). Rather it is of fine clay size particles consisting of mineral oxides and clay silicates, rather than the pure silica of which sand is composed. Also called desert varnish it is a thin, dark orange, or red to black mineral coating (generally iron and manganese oxides and clay silicates) deposited on pebbles and rocks and most rarely coins on the surface of desert regions. As soil moisture is brought to the surface by capillary action evaporates, dissolved minerals are deposited on the surface. Wind abrasion removes the softer salts and polishes the patina to a glossy finish. The rate of patina formation is slow and it is considered to most likely take about 2,000 years to form. Because it forms at, or extremely close to the surface, it is unusual to find well preserved coins with such a patina.
The multicolored often near fluorescent stuff we see on most coins described as desert patina is artificial. It is applied by those seeking to enhance the visual appeal and thus value of coins in the eyes of the less knowledgeable collector. As such, it originates in just about every country on earth where there is a trade in ancient coins and the environmental conditions for its origin are nothing more than quiet, well lit work bench.
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The uncleaned coins afficianados should be able to address the question of how frequently "desert patina" is encountered. I haven't read of anyone crowing about such finds in their uncleaned lots!
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To be fair, while I obviously disagree with the practise... It has resulted in a much prettier coin... There is some artistry involved in this process!
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To be fair, while I obviously disagree with the practise... It has resulted in a much prettier coin... There is some artistry involved in this process!
True, hence the higher price. This practice of "painting" coins to lift detail is extremely common with the generally shabby Judean series. Is it a legitimate improvement or an element of fakery? NumisWiki details the issue under Fakes, Forgeries and Frauds ... https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Ancient%20Coin%20Collecting%20101 ..."Other coins are modified in one way or another to improve their value, but when not properly labeled are a fraud and should be avoided. Modifications may include the application of a false patina, after over cleaning, painting to add or highlight details that are not on the original coin..."
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Hence the name 'con artist'. ;)
Doug, it is not easy to put into words and, as I've said elsewhere before, I don't claim to be able to spot every fake sand patina and not falsely condemn a single genuine one. With that out of the way, a few things that stand out are that this fake patina is often shiny and has a coarser appearance than genuine sand patina, with bumps and bubbles. The sand patina as a whole is often very regular, like this coin for example, which I find very convincing.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/3180454.jpg)
Here's an example of the coarseness. This one was even identified as having an artificial sand patina.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/3170169.jpg)
This is a particularly bad example where you can see the artificial patina beneath the artificial sand patina.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/3170175.jpg)
I can't prove that they are by the same hand, of course, but I personally have no doubt.
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Hi,
Yes, it is a false patina on the Alexander of Carthage coin but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion). If you look for the thread on a Cleopatra bronze there is a differentiation between "desert patina" and "desert patination", the latter being a false patina, the former being natural. However, these two phrases are very similar and open to misunderstanding and are often interchanged. We need to have a clarity in the sales description when a false patina has been applied.
Regards,
Mauseus
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Another before and after with a $4,000 mark-up for "artistry" described as Desert Patination in the attribution/description! Certainly a very nice paint job. But a little misleading, if not naughty to describe it as Desert Patination in my opinion.
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Hi,
Yes, it is a false patina on the Alexander of Carthage coin but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion). If you look for the thread on a Cleopatra bronze there is a differentiation between "desert patina" and "desert patination", the latter being a false patina, the former being natural. However, these two phrases are very similar and open to misunderstanding and are often interchanged. We need to have a clarity in the sales description when a false patina has been applied.
Regards,
Mauseus
Do you truly believe the vendor uses the term 'desert patination' in the belief that most customers know that it means 'fake sand patina glued onto the ruin of a coin to hide the defects' or, like it is always used, to mislead the majority of collectors who don't know the difference? Is it a term you yourself would use and feel good about it, feel that you had honestly described the coin with it?
I would say he tries hard not to describe it honestly, in which case a number of clear words, like fake, artificial etc. are available.
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Hi Andreas,
That is why I was urging for clarity in description so the buyer knows what they are getting. As I said there is often interchange of description and a lack, currently, of knowledge in the use of the terms. I would also suggest that the blackness of the Uranius coin in its "original" state above and, perhaps the Alexander too, is the result of a false treatment such as liver of sulphur (which would again normally go undocumented in a sales description).
Regards,
Mauseus
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I was confused by your statement that the
but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion)
. Can anybody, unless they're 'playing devil's advocate' really have the opinion that the seller is doing anything but trying hard to hide what he's done?
If anybody thinks that, I'd like them to come out and say so.
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I was confused by your statement that the but the vendor describes it as such or tries to (or tries to hide it, depending on your opinion)
. Can anybody, unless they're 'playing devil's advocate' really have the opinion that the seller is doing anything but trying hard to hide what he's done?
If anybody thinks that, I'd like them to come out and say so.
I do not collect bronze coins; reading the description I would not understand that the term "patination" means artificial patina. Quoting text from wikipedia: "The chemical process by which a patina forms is called patination, and a work of art coated by a patina is said to be patinated".
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Hi Andreas,
I certainly have no opinion to disclose whether I think the vendor is trying to disguise what has been done to the coin. I was merely pointing out that the language is unclear but used in the context in the parameters of the definition he espoused in the thread I cited. The addition of "tion" does have consequences to the meaning of what has been done and the community at large may not understand, particularly as the phrases patina and patination are, as paparoupa notes, interchanged at times.
Regards,
Mauseus
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.. This fraud supplies a number of big and supposedly reputable dealers so you better be very careful.
I thought the dealer with the sand and glue was classified as a reputable dealer, one of many on a popular numismatic vendors' platform and even a contributor to this august discussion board?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I read here on the forum somewhere he (the dealer) saying that the "Modern Desert patina added to coins originated in the middle east is a common phenomenon". At least with regards to "Jewish" (or Biblical related) coins is a sort of hobby I have to follow up on items sold in actions and bought by dealers and then looking for them (and almost always fining them) on that famous ancient coin Borsa, after they were improved using the fake desert patina and sometimes more.
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The uncleaned coins afficianados should be able to address the question of how frequently "desert patina" is encountered. I haven't read of anyone crowing about such finds in their uncleaned lots!
All of my uncleaned coins came with thick dirt on them. Most people just attack uncleaned coins with a brass brush leaving no trace of it behind. By being patient and careful you can leave a dessert "patina" on uncleaned coins but it requires a great deal of patience and some skill.
I personally think that the coins posted here look better but that still doesn't mean it's okay. Any fake patina should be clearly disclosed. However this particular dealer is not the only one that uses vague words to describe the practice. In fact a very big name in numismatics regularly uses the term "Patinated" to describe an artificial patina. Clear as mud right...
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At this point I am less concerned with the question of accepting or avoiding coins with sandy surfaces than whether I have a right to expect anything from the dealers I buy from and the dealer groups that certify them. Perhaps a good test will come when the buyers of these improved coins try to sell them back to these same dealers. This thread has been notably ignored or avoided by certain big names in the business so it will be up to each of us to decide if that silence implies their approval or displeasure with any particular practice. I will continue to buy coins that I suspect or know to have been 'improved' but I will try to be more careful to pay the admittedly defective price rather than being first to finance blindly the upgrades. The only way a practice like this will be ended is if those doing it find it unprofitable.
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I agree that "patination" is far too ambiguous, and deliberately misleading customers. I'm not entirely opposed to the practice itself, if it is very clearly described, but as such it's unacceptable, in my opinion.
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Ecce homo
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The coin has been removed. A very small victory for collectors but a victory nonetheless. :)
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...This thread has been notably ignored or avoided by certain big names in the business so it will be up to each of us to decide if that silence implies their approval or displeasure with any particular practice...
Perhaps that is because the title of the thread was inappropriate. I have corrected it.
I don't disagree with darkening with liver of sulfur. I don't strongly disagree adding a little dirt to highlight details. I even think smoothing raised bumps is OK (but not pits). Using dirt (or anything) to fill pits and hide flaws is definitely wrong. It might be OK to sell it this way and say "professionally restored, earthen fill covers rough fields and pitting." If I bought it and then saw the before photo, I would certainly feel cheated.
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Cheated, or even defrauded by someone who habitually does this. There have been numerous threads like this here over the years. Inappropriate perhaps but not incorrect in any way. The root of the problem is that while many dealers truly love ancient coins and ancient history, a small minority are only in it for the money and that they've turned to coins is just coincidence.
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I can agree with each of Joe's points. There are, to me, two separate faults to avoid. One is doing a bad job making the item worse as in the painting posted by Galaxy. The second is doing a good job and hoping no one will notice.
We seem to be in a strange situation where there are more people with large amounts of money to spend on coins than there are people interested in learning even a little about them.
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We seem to be in a strange situation where there are more people with large amounts of money to spend on coins than there are people interested in learning even a little about them.
But that's how it is in reality. More than once I found myself sitting at some dealers shop before auctions, examining lots, while beside me sat some fella with his wife (not being anti feminine here: its just that the following dynamics always involved " a collector and his spouse"....) holding expensive artifacts of starting bids that were 10 times more expensive than all I had to spend on that auction at best. "what do you think honey?" Mr. collector said. "do you think I should take this Egyptian cat sculpture for 6K$?". Mrs. usually answers "If you like it I think you should". After that usually comes the chance for collector to express his lack of knowledge by asking the dealer "Dr. you say this cat is middle kingdom dated?" to which dealer answers " No it is late Roman....". Collector still buy it... two years later its in the auction again. Obviously not all collectors are like that but more than a few are!.
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The uncleaned coins afficianados should be able to address the question of how frequently "desert patina" is encountered. I haven't read of anyone crowing about such finds in their uncleaned lots!
All of my uncleaned coins came with thick dirt on them. Most people just attack uncleaned coins with a brass brush leaving no trace of it behind. By being patient and careful you can leave a dessert "patina" on uncleaned coins but it requires a great deal of patience and some skill.
That is an earthen patina rather than a desert patina which is rare.. To quote from a previous thread.... Technically genuine desert patina is quite rare and does not consist of sand particles (which range in in size 1/16 - 2 mm in size and in the case of desert sand consist of almost pure silica). Rather it is of fine clay size particles consisting of mineral oxides and clay silicates, rather than the pure silica of which sand is composed. Also called desert varnish it is a thin, dark orange, or red to black mineral coating (generally iron and manganese oxides and clay silicates) deposited on pebbles and rocks and most rarely coins on the surface of desert regions. As soil moisture is brought to the surface by capillary action evaporates, dissolved minerals are deposited on the surface. Wind abrasion removes the softer salts and polishes the patina to a glossy finish. The rate of patina formation is slow and it is considered to most likely take about 2,000 years to form. Because it forms at, or extremely close to the surface, it is unusual to find well preserved coins with such a patina.
Even with authentic patinas, the trade uses and mixes terminolgy quite inappropriately and misleadingly, if not deceptively and that is before we get into fake patinas and "patination". If they were honest about the latter, then "desert patination" would be factually described in the trade as "artificial table-top patination". A desert is nowhere to be seen in this process! Unless of course the table-top was sitting in Arizona, which I can warrant wasn't the case for the coins in this thread.
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This thread has been notably ignored or avoided by certain big names in the business so it will be up to each of us to decide if that silence implies their approval or displeasure with any particular practice.
... or alternatively it may imply displeasure with the widespread disclosure of its existence as the norm within the approach to "price enhancing patination"!
Truthfully it should be identified in sales descriptions for what it is - an artifical patina applied to enhance appearance and cover otherwise damaged and ugly surfaces. Anything less than such honest disclosure is deceptive and misleading, in fact illegal under consumer law in some jurisdictions.
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About 15 years ago when I used to buy uncleaned coins they all had reddish orange dessert patinas. They may be harder to find now, but there are genuine examples out there...
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Dear Areich
we have such talks on the past.
the coin was described aspatinated, where is the fraud ?
plz choose your words, a fraud when you dont mention the patination, calm down your horses !!!
and it sas that the surface is rough , so it wasent to hide surface problems, I used the exact words CNG used, and dint change it so the collector know it has a rough surface.
it is said patination and it is clear patination, for my self I think it was ugly before, now it is more a life.
I have talks with follow dealers today regarding this, and they said it wasent very clear , I respect that and since English is not my first language I will take from the dealers who speak it clearly the exact language, from now on it will be Desert patina applied, and if you have any suggestions I am all Ears .
thanks every one.
Happy new year .
Salem Alshdaifat
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Salem, I think the problem is that "patinated" does not, as you seemed to think, explain that the patina is applied. A coin can be naturally patinated. As you have explained, this may be and English-as-a-second-language issue. I think your new terminology is a critical improvement.
n.igma, I don't think desert patina is rare. Desert patina is fairly common on coins coming from Syria, Spain and other desert areas. I don't know who you are quoting, but that is just one person's definition. All desert patina IS earthen patina, but not all earthen patina is desert patina. The biggest difference between desert patina and other earthen patinas is that desert patina comes from the desert (it also happens to be very tough and often attractive). It definitely does NOT take almost 2000 years on the surface for a desert patina to form. Many coins with desert patina are not that old.
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surely Joe I will use in the future a more detailed language, I will put (Desert patina Applied ).
and I didnt at any point wanted to change the thoughts about the coin surface since I mentioned that it has a rough surface.
is that clear in your thoughts?
Happy new year Joe and every one.
Salem
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I think it is an appropriate change. I'm glad you're doing it.
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Thanks Molinari, I for sure will use this term from now on.
happy new year.
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surely Joe I will use in the future a more detailed language, I will put (Desert patina Applied ).
and I didnt at any point wanted to change the thoughts about the coin surface since I mentioned that it has a rough surface.
is that clear in your thoughts?
Happy new year Joe and every one.
Salem
Happy New Year to you and yours too.
I think the description should be clear enough that, if or when the customer sees the "before" photo, they are not surprised or disappointed. I recommend saying something like, "Professionally restored. Applied desert patina fills pitted fields. Photos of the coin before professional restoration available on request."
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On second thought, there's no use in discussing this further.
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New member here. Back to collecting after decades. I got a small hoard of coins in North Africa in 1972, so I know what real coins are like. I have worked with several of them that have perfect real desert patina (and a lot of junk coins).
On EBay, I am losing my mind. Almost everyone has been faked somehow and I am trying my best to weed out the dubious ones. All were bought from “reputable dealers.”
Most recently, a Judean coin came in with nice desert patina. I spit in my palm and rubbed the coin for about three seconds and much came off. 2000+ year old encrustation does not do this. I had to use electrolysis and rubbing with baking soda for a week on a similar coin to get it where I wanted. Don’t hate me for enough cleaning to identify!
In this case the coin seems genuine, as far as I can tell, but the patina added. This is a well-known reputable dealer who likely was not willing to rub the coin like I did. I’m letting it go because I wanted the history and would have bought without the patina probably.
I am only trusting coins that are not great right now. Usually uncleaned lots, etc.
☹️😩😔
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Oh no, the sky is falling....
Not a great first post.
Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers => Topic started by: areich on January 02, 2014, 04:21:29 am