Author Topic: Alexander Stater (Read 2930 times)

Dino · « **on:** August 03, 2007, 09:31:48 am »

Can anyone tell me anything about this?

My father got it in the 70's in Greece.

Any idea of where/when it was minted?

What is its value?

Any other info on it?

I've seen info on Alexander Staters but haven't found one where the back looks exactly like this one.

Pscipio · « **Reply #1 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:38:17 am »

Yours is a modern fake, unfortunately, and apparently not of gold.

Lars

Dino · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2007, 10:08:48 am »

Bummer. Can I ask how you can tell?

Pscipio · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2007, 10:53:04 am »

Style, metal and technique. Besides, you can't expect to buy a genuine Alexander gold stater en passant in Greece. And even if so, it would be illegal to export it, anyways.

Lars

Dino · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:08:27 am »

Pscipio-

I didn't suggest that it was purchased en passant, as a tourist in some back alley. Both my parents grew up in Greece.

The style looks similar to many of styles I've seen on-line, although I haven't seen anything exactly like the Nike on the back.

I was told by the owner of a coin shop in MD that he thought it was genuine, although he was an expert in colonials and US gold coins.

He said that the metal is gold. That much I believe. Not sure why you think it's not.

What is it about the technique that concerns you?

To be honest, based on my limited knowledge, I was most concerned about the little holes on both sides, but I don't know enough to say yea or nea on it.

I'm going to NYC for hearings on Tuesday and was planning on heading to Stack's to see what they had to say, but wanted to check out some other resources first.

I certainly appreciate your time on this, but if you're just guessing on this based on assumptions rather than something you see let me know.

Thanks again.

Pscipio · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:18:46 am »

The casting bubbles are obvious, especially on the Nike, but also on the hair of the Athena and in other places. The coin is apparently cast, not struck, which makes it a modern copy, and the metal doesn't look like gold to me: note the surfaces that are much too rough. You might also tell us the size and weight, I suspect the latter will be wrong as well.

A dealer of colonial and US coins should not authenticate an ancient coin. I deal in ancient coins and wouldn't authenticate a US Dollar, either, since I know nothing about them.

Lars

Dino · « **Reply #6 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:28:19 am »

No clue on weight or size. At least not close enough to be helpful here. I imagine that even if it's a fake that the size/weight will be close (assuming that it really is gold). But who knows.

But in any event, I'll take it to Stacks on Tuesday and see if they confirm what you say (and what I'm afraid of).

Although I'll never tell my mom.

And the dealer in MD didn't completely authenticate. He said that he THOUGHT it was genuine and he did tell me that I should go to an ancients expert. I'm surprised that he didn't catch the bubbling though.

The scan is really high resolution though, so maybe he didn't see it when looking at the coin live??

Thanks for your time.

Pscipio · « **Reply #7 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:33:45 am »

Stacks mainly deals in modern coins, so make sure to show it to an employee who knows ancient coins. I'm sorry that I had to disappoint you.

Lars

Dino · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:38:03 am »

Any other suggestions on who to take it to here on the east coast of the US? I live in the DC area. I know about PGCS, but didn't want to send it there until I was fairly certain that it was real.

I'll be in NYC on Tues, so if you think there's someone else there who might be more helpful than Stacks, I'd love to get a name. I noticed that Stack's auctions staters from time to time which is why I thought I'd go there.

Pscipio · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:45:44 am »

Unfortunately, I've seen horrible attribution errors of PGCS graded coins, so I wouldn't trust them either. People who can't ID an ancient coin should not authenticate it. That company, too, is specialized in modern coins, not in ancients.

If you want a certificate, send it to David Sear: http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html That will cost you some money and time, though. I don't know if there are any ancient coin dealers in DC since I live on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean - maybe someone else can give you any names.

Lars

curtislclay · « **Reply #10 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:47:01 am »

Stack's has an ancient department, Coin Galleries, whose competence should suffice.

Dino · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:48:00 am »

Thank you both.

rick fox · « **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2007, 02:11:44 pm »

At first blush it I would say it was sand cast, but I don't see the granules usually associated with this method.

slokind · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2007, 03:47:15 pm »

I hope that CGPCGP will take his father's stater to Stack's, because there's a good chance that they will have some gold staters for him to look at. And, as Curtis said, they do handle and sell ancients as well as later coins and, above all, handle high-end coins. Pat L.

bpmurphy · « **Reply #14 on:** August 04, 2007, 04:24:57 pm »

There are lots of people you could show it to on the east coast.

I'm in Lancaster, CNG is in Lancaster, Brian Kritt, Andy Singer and Ed Waddell are just outside DC. There was a show in Vienna VA today that I just returned from. There were perhaps 10 ancient dealers there.

Barry Murphy

Dino · « **Reply #15 on:** August 06, 2007, 08:58:39 am »

I'll post what the guys at Stacks tell me tomorrow.

Wish I would have known about the Vienna show on Sat. Wife and kids are out of town so I had time to kill. I went on a long motorcycle ride to Harper's Ferry. Ah well. I'm sure I enjoyed that more than I would have enjoyed ppl at the Vienna show confirming a fake.

Who knows, if Stacks has any Staters for sale I may buy a real one.

Reid Goldsborough · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2007, 11:30:45 am »

It will be interesting to hear what Stacks says from being able to see the coin in person. The picture is a pretty good one though. From it I'd be very surprised if this piece were judged to be ancient. I've never seen surfaces like that on an ancient gold coin, of Alexander of anyone else, though I'm a collector not a dealer and have seen far fewer coins than dealers do. To my eyes as well, the surfaces indicate the coin is likely a modern cast piece. On the other hand, another possible explanation is that the surfaces look the way they do because of corrosion. Gold does not typically corrupt like that, and Alexander's staters were made from nearly pure gold. On the other hand, I've heard that salt water can corrode gold over very long stretches of time, so perhaps this piece was recovered from the Mediterranean. Anybody know more about this? Anybody seen the surfaces of a gold coin that was in fact recovered from the ocean?

Dino · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2007, 12:46:54 pm »

Well, Bad news, Good news, Bad news on the stater.

1. Bad news is that Stacks has 3 ancients experts. Two were at a show in the Mid-West and the third was out sick. The remaining people there told me that they weren't qualified to authenticate it.

2. The Good news is that they tested it and it is real gold.

3. The Bad news is that they weighed it and it weighed in at 6 grams. They said that it SHOULD weigh in somewhere around 8 grams.

They also said that it looked at the edges had been filed or clipped. They noted that that could account for the weight disparity. They also said that if it was a modern cast copy, that someone could have filed or cut the edges to remove a line that would be there from the mold. They also noted the bubbles and roughness as evidence of casting.

Bottom line, based on what people on this site have told me and what Stacks has told me, I'm 99.725 percent sure I've got a fake on my hands. I do want someone who really knows his/her stuff to take a look at it though and give me the final word, so I may contact some of the ppl identified above as being in the area.

At least it's real gold. Maybe I can make a pendant out of the thing for my mom since it came from my dad.

Thanks to you all for your help.

I have to say that the other thing that this has done is to pique my curiousity on ancient coins, and Greek coins in particualr, simply because of my heritage. In looking around the internet and at Stacks yesterday, I've concluded that these things can really be beautiful works of art. Almost bought a silver coin with an owl on it for $400 bucks on an impulse, but then decided that if I'm going to do this I really need to be more educated about it. Maybe I'll only buy one and display it my office at home or maybe I'll start collecting. Maybe the one I'll buy will be a real stater. Who knows? I really need to have some education on thisthough before jumping in, even if it's to buy from someone reputable like Stacks.

So I'll be reading this site and some of the resources identified on this site and you guys may get some questions from me as I figure this stuff out.

Again thanks for your time and your interest in my coin.

And once I get someone to officially pronounce my coin dead I'll let you know even though I think you all already know it's dead.

Rupert · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2007, 02:42:38 pm »

I think that making this coin a nice pendant for your mom is a very good idea. People who do this with real ancient gold coins are barbarians.

The advice that the people at Stack's gave you sounds perfectly reasonable. These are rules that are true for coins of all ages. Rough surfaces + air bubbles + file marks + underweight = cast. Period. Remember, air bubbles from casting and corrosion pits CAN be very hard to tell apart, but gold doesn't corrode in the ground.

So, on the neck of a lady would be the right place for this memory-packed, beautiful but not ancient piece of gold.

Rupert

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Author Topic: Alexander Stater (Read 2930 times)