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Author Topic: Could this be ancient?  (Read 1525 times)

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Offline slokind

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Could this be ancient?
« on: July 11, 2007, 12:43:50 am »
Once I deliberately got a coin I thought was fake, and I still have it.
This one I got because I couldn't work out any of the legend from the image provided, but now, unless I'm very stupid, I can't work it out to spell anything.  Also I have other doubts, some of them stylistic, others technical; my photo is in focus, but nothing is sharp on the coin.  At best, even if the legends can be made to make sense, I think it has been 'repatinated' with some of that nasty opaque stuff, since the brass shows through in the wrong way.  The portrait looks both too much and too little like Caracalla at about age ten.  If it's a fake I'll send it back and post a fake report on it.
Anyhow, this is one I'd like not to keep.  You all know how much I like Herakles holding a bow, but I don't like this coin.  It came on Friday, and I've looked at it a lot since then.
Today the Tityassos coin came, as sweet as its name, and a very sweet (who cares how common) Caracalla Caesar denarius.  The questionable one is from a seller unknown (I hope) to me.
Pat L.

Offline berserkrro

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Re: Could this be ancient?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2007, 02:09:10 am »
I think is genuine. One of the young antonini, and seems to be issued at Nikopolis.

Offline Bacchus

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Re: Could this be ancient?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 04:02:03 am »
Yes Pat I see what you mean by it being questionable.  The style is definitly cruder than I would have expected with heavy, thick lines and the legend doesn't make complete sense either.  It is, as you say, probably Caracalla and even with the reservations I would probably drop on the genuine side - perhaps it was a new engravor's first attempt?

Malcolm

Offline areich

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Re: Could this be ancient?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2007, 06:34:52 am »
Could Herakles' head have been tooled prior to
this 'repatination'?
Andreas Reich

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Could this be ancient?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2007, 07:24:29 am »
It certainly looks ancient to me and I don't think it is tooled. Repatinated, yes. I'd go with an ancient imitation (which would be very interesting) or as Malcolm suggests, an untrained engravor.

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Offline slokind

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Re: Could this be ancient?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2007, 04:19:11 pm »
Well, 'tooled' coins ordinarily recut effaced legends from an EF specimen or Cohen, if he happens to illustrate the coin.  This goes a little farther than mere tooling.  The flan, of course, is ancient metal, but there is no source for an ignorant and insouciant person to have worked from, since Septimius's Herakles here is the same type but a different die, and the perpetrator probably did not know that coin, either.  The head of Herakles needn't be burly; for Caracalla, it is a youthful Herakles.
When you consider that the sole listed specimen is STILL just "St Petersburg", and still is only cited by Varbanov Engl. from Pick, and that, even had he known it the person who eliminated the present coin from the scholarly record by what he did could have gotten no help from my 'ghost' specimen, and that he or she (to be 'correct') had no access to a computer to find one of the well preserved specimens of the obverse or to find one of the lists of governors of Moesia Inferior, and apparently hardly knew the Greek alphabet, let alone the leter forms for this time and place, to which one must add no knowledge of human anatomy, not even that of a Late Genius Pop, I must agree that 'tooling' is the wrong word.  The malefactor in this case lacked even the motive of 'improving' on something.  And the seller lacked any gumption whatsoever.  He didn't say anything but 'unidentified', even though he had it in hand and may himself have been the 'conservator'.
Comparison with my faintest ghost, all I've been able to find (assuming even that 'St Petersburg', after everything that has passed in more than a century, could find theirs) does show that one less ghostly than mine though probably corroded has been irrevocably destroyed.
Pick could not be sure even whether the reverse die was the same or not for Septimius and Caracalla.  The obverse die for Caracalla is the same as that for Pick 1518, his Apollo Sauroktonos (variant with twig), for which see Jochen's here or the one in CoinArchives.
My poor specimens (poor but not abused):
• 23 06 05 Æ25  9.53g  axis 6:30h  Nicopolis ad Istrum.  Issued by Tertullus.  Caracalla, laureate, draped bust to r.  AV. K. M. AV[R]    A[NTONEI]NOS .  Rev. Herakles stg. to r. (if beardless, then 'young' as Pick says), in his lowered r. hand his club resting on the groundline; in his outstretched l. hand his bow; over the l. forearm the lion skin.  VPA OOV [TERTVLLOV] NIKOPOLI PROS I (continuous).  Pick knew one specimen in St. Petersburg.  He says, whether it is AVR  or AVRH is uncertain, still more so on mine, and "The rev. is very similar to or perhaps the same as that of Severus, above no. 1276".  Just so, but I think they were in either case issued as a pair.  Varbanov  I, 2446, cites only AMNG I, 1, which means the Petersburg coin=Engl.3106.  I heightened contrast for legibility.
• 29 07 02 AE 26  Nicopolis ad Istrum  Tertullus  Septimius Severus, laureate head to r.  AV KAI      SEVEROS P.  Rev.,  Bearded Herakles stg. to r., leaning on club in his r., holding bow in his l.  VP OOVINI TERTVLLOV NIKOPOL[--- (there seems to be an O in the exergue).  AMNG I, 1, p. 360, no. 1276, describing the Bucarest example, which clearly showed that the traces over his l. forearm are the lion skin, though the legend is less complete; the present example, however, not only preserves the obv. legend but is certainly a different die, since it is a head, not a bust with armor and cloak. (=Varb. Engl. 2553, at least for the reverse; he cites only WW).  The obv. die in Varbanov is a Bust rather than a Head.  PL
The letters that make sense on the 'mess' align with surviving letters on mine.
And I add obverse in at least VF condition from Pick 1518.

magnusmaximus

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Re: Could this be ancient?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 05:37:59 pm »
100% ancient

 

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