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Author Topic: Phillip II Naked Horseman, Symbols Under Horse Help Please  (Read 788 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Phillip II Naked Horseman, Symbols Under Horse Help Please
« on: December 13, 2021, 07:42:26 pm »
Hey everyone, I have three coins of Phillip II that I have been looking at for literally months. Two are presented here and I am doing two instead of one because they are related, I think they are the same coin type with different symbols below the horse. The third one is Apollo facing left with ΦIΛIΠΠOY clearly above the horse, so in its own category

This type has a zillion references, possibly more for a specific coin type than I have ever seen. Sear has a few listed. Anyway, the challenge for me here is figuring out what the symbol below the horse is.

One of the coins has something like ΔI. The other one I have concluded is closest to a bucranium, but it could also be many other things. It actually looks like a small mammal. I guess it could also be a strange looking dolphin. Or an E on its side. This is driving me crazy.

Thanks!

Virgil

Offline Altamura

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Re: Phillip II Naked Horseman, Symbols Under Horse Help Please
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2021, 02:26:08 am »
For these head/rider coins of Philip II I mostly use as references A. R. Bellinger, "Philippi in Macedonia", in ANSMN 11 (1964), pp. 29-52: https://archive.org/details/ANSMusNotes1960Vols9to11/page/29/mode/2up?q=bellinger
and  Ch. A. Hersh, "A 1992 Hoard of bronze coins of Philip II from Beroia in Thrace", in: M. Amandry, S. Hurter (eds), "Travaux de numismatique grecque offerts à Georges Le Rider", London 1999, pp. 161-165 (not available online).

On your first coin I don't see any rider on the horse, so it also could be an Alexander with AI beneath the horse (Price doesn't list a variant with ΔI): http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.363
Or it is a Phillip II with ΔI, then it is Bellinger 69.
What is the weight of the coin? (You should always give weight and size while asking for identifications!)

On the second coin I see a bucranion as in Bellinger number 20, there are variants with one horn pointing downwards:
http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.12669

Regards

Altamura

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Phillip II Naked Horseman, Symbols Under Horse Help Please
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2021, 06:27:26 pm »
Hi Altamura,

Thank you so much for your response. I will look at those references and I always appreciate it when you post references that I have not heard of. Sorry for forgetting weights/sizes, I wasn't sure they were necessary for this one.

-For ΔI coin, 6.19 grams, AE17
-For bucranion coin, 6.14 grams, AE18

They are very close in size, really. On the first one, I thought I saw vestiges of a rider, but it is very faint and I may be seeing it because I think it is supposed to be there.

Thanks again,
Virgil


Offline Enodia

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Re: Phillip II Naked Horseman, Symbols Under Horse Help Please
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2021, 07:24:41 pm »

They are very close in size, really. On the first one, I thought I saw vestiges of a rider, but it is very faint and I may be seeing it because I think it is supposed to be there.

Thanks again,
Virgil

Yeah, I thought I could see the rider too, but it could just be a ghost image.

~ Peter

Offline Altamura

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Re: Phillip II Naked Horseman, Symbols Under Horse Help Please
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2021, 05:30:18 am »
... -For ΔI coin, 6.19 grams, AE17 ...
With about 6 g the coin is too heavy for an Alexander (these are around 3.5 g), so it is probably a Philip II with a ghost rider on a meager horse :) .

Regards

Altamura

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Phillip II Naked Horseman, Symbols Under Horse Help Please
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2021, 12:07:26 pm »
Thank you again Altamura,
Even these two coins are on the low end of the weight range for the examples I found in the ANS MANTIS database. Only one example out of fifteen was under mine and that one was 5.74 grams. A few were over 7 grams.

Regards,
Virgil

 

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