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Author Topic: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham  (Read 1130 times)

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Linda L

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help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« on: September 22, 2009, 09:45:21 pm »
I'm definitely not a seller.  I just want to know what I have and if it's a modern replica.  It was given to me by a friend from Thessaloniki.  I'll try to get exact weight and measurements and amend this post if needed.  Thank you for your help!  I've learned a lot about ancient coins on this site in just one sitting.

Offline archivum

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 11:06:42 pm »
I think it's a handsome, but modern, reengraving of this Kimon-attributed issue; the lettering looks wrong at a couple of points, and the fins on your dolphins are different from any I've seen on an ancient, more like renderings from modern photography.  But I could be wrong, and it's worth making surer than I can.

(Cut and paste the entire URL, or just re-run the search using these as your search-terms on acsearch.info: kimon+AR+dekadrachm+syra*)

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=kimon+AR+dekadrachm+syra*+-master&view_mode=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1#0

LINK FIXED BY ADMIN.  FOR LONG LINKS, HIGHLIGHT THE URL AND CLICK THE LINK BUTTON (IT LOOKS LIKE A GLOBE WITH A PIECE OF PAPER LOWER RIGHT).  SHORT URLS WILL LINK AUTOMATICALLY.  LONGER ONES NEED TO BE BRACKETED IN THE DISCUSSION BOARD LINK CODE.   
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Linda L

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 11:37:05 am »
Thank you for taking a look.  Yes, I think it's most handsome too and I cherish it whether it's ancient or modern, actually.  But I'd like to know for sure.  Can you make a suggestion as to how I could eliminate all doubt?  I live on the west coast of the US.  Can you suggest someone I could take it to?  L

Linda L

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 01:01:44 pm »
http://numismatics.org/dnid/numismatics.org:1997.9.66

I found an image of an ancient to compare with.  Geez---Kimon only made these for 5 years.  Maybe your trained eyes will see stuff I miss here, but right off the symbols on the legend don't seem to match.  Thanks again for your help.... L

Offline archivum

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 03:03:51 pm »

For a price you could have the coin vetted by David R. Sear; I would wait till you get more opinions on Forum, which you could do here or on Forum's Fake Ancients Discussion page, https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=9.0.  These are much-prized and often-faked coins, and the provenance counts; you might well settle much by retracing the coin's movements from Sicily (or "Sicily") to Greece before you brought it home.

http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline areich

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 03:10:18 pm »
The chance that it's genuine is vanishingly small but I can understand that you
can't accept it on these grounds. What's the closest city to you, I'm sure there'll be a dealer there.
Instead of paying someone to authenticate it you might want to offer it for sale (to a real expert).
He'll tell you what he thinks of it for free.

Andreas
Andreas Reich

Offline Enodia

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 03:24:06 pm »
it is a very lovely replica, and a collectible in its' own right i'm sure.

the style of the portrait looks absolutely modern to me however, and i can't imagine that this piece is ancient.

~ Peter

Linda L

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2009, 11:17:41 am »
Thank you, everyone, for your additional comments.  I took a few hours yesterday and just surfed images of ancients by Kimon and others, trying to make my own determination.  When I began this tour, I figured it was most-certainly a modern replica, but by the end of the day yesterday I wasn't so sure!  How many dies could one engraver come up with?  Well, I found out there were a lot of them, and some very similar to the others.  This image of Arethusa IS similar enough to several I discovered, even one by Euainetos, but the charioteer on the back seems in repose, whereas the ones on the authentics is leaning well forward.  The dolphins?  Some of these coins I looked at were so worn that the details of the fins, etc. were gone and all that remained was a sliver of metal.  There are small variations between my coin and the authentics, but then there are small variations between all of the authentics themselves!!!  Did the dies wear out, or did they just keep improving on their last creation?  I suppose it's long odds to discover a coin from the same striking.  I guess I need to learn more about the whole process, but this sure has been FUN!!  I knew nothing about ancient Greek coins two days ago...  Didn't know what a 'quadriga' was... he he

I said the coin was given to me by a friend.  I left out a step in there.  The coin was actually given to my father and it was passed to me when he died.  He was a dignitary at Lewis and Clark College in Portland, OR and met a lot of people from around the world in that capacity.  Our house was filled with 'artifacts' actually.  All I know about this friend of our family is that he was from Thessaloniki and my father did a very great favor for him, for which he was repaid with this coin.  I've used the coin as a good luck piece especially when playing poker, it always sits by my chips.  lol  But now I'm of a mind to see what it's all about for certain.

David R. Sear, eh?  I'll Google him and see where he is.  I like your angle, Andreas!  I am near Portland, Oregon.  I don't want to let this little baby out of my sight, so I'd have to take it to the professional numismatic big wig in person.  I contacted by email a man named Harlan Berk in Chicago and sent him these photos.  He writes articles for several Numismatic Societies, and seems quite passionate about Kimon in particular, but he hasn't written back as yet. 

I think this coin has so little wear, it might be deceiving.  But in any case, it will always be my lucky coin and it reminds me of my father.  I will keep you all posted as to what i come up with and any additional suggestions are very much appreciated.

L

Offline Enodia

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2009, 02:21:21 pm »
you might also contact Tom Cederlind, who is in Portland. he doesn't have a brick & mortar store, but i believe he accepts appointments. Google can connect you.

i'm right down the road in Salem, but i don't know of any other dealers in the area who would be able to attribute this coin for you.

~ Peter

Linda L

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2009, 01:16:44 pm »
Tom Cederlind, got it!  Thank you.  I've emailed all over the place, with no responses, naturally.  I'll see if I can make an appointment with this fella in Portland and I'll let you know what happens.  This may sounds like a dumb question, but can't they carbon date these things or authenticate through some scientific process?  I can just imagine what something like that would cost...

Offline Enodia

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2009, 01:38:10 pm »
carbon dating would only tell you that the silver is old, and isn't all silver? 
there are systematic methods of eliminating fakes, and many of the experts here are very good at spotting them, but of course it isn't fool-proof. one can look for evidence of casting, stylistic differences, etc. but the best training is still just handling thousands of coins until one has a feel for the way they are suppsed to look. that's where the experts come in, and in all honesty you will have a hard time finding many more knowledable experts than right here at Forvm.

good luck:)

~ Peter

Offline areich

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2009, 01:44:24 pm »
Can you carbon-date silver?  ???
Andreas Reich

Offline Philoromaos

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2009, 02:03:06 pm »
I thought you could only carbon date something that had once been living?

Offline Paul D3

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2009, 02:07:57 pm »
quote author=Adrian S link=topic=56453.msg351315#msg351315 date=1253901786]
I thought you could only carbon date something that had once been living?
[/quote]

True-besides, chemical dateing methods would only indicate the age of the metal, which we know is millions or as much as a billion years old

Offline slokind

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2009, 04:57:52 pm »
An assay can be made of the silver, which ought to be pretty pure.
How much carbon would you expect to find in good ancient silver?  (none)  C14 (none).  That is why ancient flaked flint tools from the Palaeolithic are dated by C14 of the soot, typically, in their contexts.  It's not as if you can date a coin by tree rings, either.  When the clay inside the bronze statue of a kouros was removed (the soaking in distilled water make it swell and cause a crack in the bronze, the black-glazed sherds in that clayey earth dated the earth, but did not tell us how long the sherds had been in that earth before it was used for a core in the hollow casting.  So far as I know, no damning late sherds were found, but if any had been I'm sure they'd have been mentioned in the literature.
The point is, the coin pretty much has to be dated by its dies and manufacture.
Pat L.

Offline Akropolis

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2009, 05:21:05 pm »
Save your money and efforts.
It is a modern fake.
PeteB

Linda L

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2009, 11:11:37 am »
Good points made on the carbon dating---thank you all!  I did a lot of surfing again yesterday, especially on known modern engravers of fake coins (still trying to trace this thing's journey) and found out that some of their wares are good enough to even make it into museums around the world.  Coin dealers in Greece keep a cache of known fake coins for reference, as do many museums.  A little research yesterday also brought up the point that engravers of fakes would take lesser valued coins from the era in question, melt them down and then produce their wares, so carbon dating wouldn't work anyway, even if it was a viable option.  And I agree, there's people right here on this forum with enough coins 'under their belt' to make a determination also.  Still, I called Tom Cederlind's office yesterday morning and sent over these pics of my lucky dekadrachm.  I had a sense they had a preconceived notion the coin was a fake before they even saw it!  They didn't want me to bring it in.  Examining the same pics I posted here, they also concur that my lucky coin is a modern replica.  Here's what I was told:  "It's a 'tourist piece,' a modern engraving.  The lettering is too concise for the era and there's 'no substance' under the face.  (Can anyone tell me what was meant by 'substance?')  The designs are too linear."  So, I guess that's the end of that!  I was also told, that if it were an ancient it would be an extremely rare find and I am unlikely to find one in this good of condition in the first place.  He invited me to examine the known dies of Kimon and to make my own determination, but that I would come to the same conclusion.  Well, I guess THAT's THAT!  This has been a fun journey, but now I feel like I have to find a real coin to appease the numismatic beast that has sprung up within me in the last few days!  GOTTA LOVE HISTORY and methinks I'd like to hold it in my hand!  Questions:  1.  What did Cederlind mean by 'substance.'  2.  Where would I find images of Kimon's known dies?  3.  What would it cost me for a REAL Kimon Dekadrachm like this?  (it's a moot point, but I'm still interested)  4.  Why did Kimon create so many dies?  Did they wear out?  Cederlind's associate also told me these dekadrachms were given out to mercenary soldiers as payment in their war against the Carthaginians.  Anywa, THANKS a BUNDLE!  L

Offline archivum

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Re: help with Syracuse Silver Dekadracham
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2009, 11:49:50 am »

See the link in reply #1; those are issues from true Kimon dies, with the true auction prices to match.  What Tom Cederlind said about "substance" probably had to do with his sense that your coin's portrait wasn't a true ancient Kimon so much as a hoaxing mockup of a Kimon, but it needs to be said again that some mockups are quantum-leaps better than others (Manet copying Old Masters, for instance); Kimon might have liked this one's style, but those letters and fins not so much!
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

 

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