Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 August!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 August!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

Recent Additions to Forum's Shop


Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 139315 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mark Z

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2256
  • Sit Julius Caesar quod vos es non.
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2010, 05:13:09 pm »
I've never seen a quadriga of donkeys before!

Really!

Does this coin qualify as a "mule?"

mz

Offline ancientdave

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #126 on: November 30, 2010, 06:03:52 pm »
Here is one just put up on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] by a well known seller who often trys to push lesser tooled coins such as this one through undisclosed. They also do this on their own sales site, more blatantly. It really irks me when I see well respected companies do this, because they know better. You can't just disclose the extreme smoothing and call it good, tooling is a whole other and much more serious issue. I know darn well that this company has far more experienced and knowledgeable folks on staff than I, and I can spot this baby as tooled a mile away. Just look at the wreath and the hair especially, it's pretty tough to miss. I must say that I am always quite dissapointed when I see this firm do this time and again, I expect a much better good faith effort at full disclosure from [REMOVED BY ADMIN] sellers.  I know that this one is more subtle, and not what I would term "badly" tooled (is there any other kind?) but to me it qualifies to be displayed here because I hold [REMOVED BY ADMIN] to a far higher standard personally.

Offline Mark Z

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2256
  • Sit Julius Caesar quod vos es non.
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #127 on: November 30, 2010, 06:22:39 pm »
If you called him on it, he would probably be quick to add that the porosity was smoothed on the hair and wreath as well as the fields.

mz

Offline Mark Z

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2256
  • Sit Julius Caesar quod vos es non.
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2010, 01:41:25 am »
Thought I should add this one here as well as the Fake Reports.

Sold on eBay and listed by the seller as "smoothed." It's also heavily tooled.

mz

check this out!

mz

Lloyd Taylor

  • Guest
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2010, 05:32:22 am »
This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #130 on: December 20, 2010, 07:17:52 pm »
Hadrian - "lightly tooled" for the holidays...


Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2011, 09:15:40 am »
Happy New Year one and all!   Syracuse, Hieron II.

Offline ancientdave

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2011, 03:28:13 pm »
This coin look familiar to anyone? This one sure does seem to get around, now it has surfaced on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at a whopping price of $5,700 US!! I also have a hard time believing that it's an innocent mistake, seeing as how the new pic certainly seems designed to soften and hide the obvious signs of tooling. I am so disgusted right now! I will not name names, but search Hadrian Sestertius at $5,700 and you can see for yourself.

Offline mihali84

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 659
    • My gallery
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2011, 04:47:12 pm »
What about this one being sold by a reputable auction house described as "smoothed and tooled"?  Not my area of focus so i can't tell wether or not it is "badly tooled" or just lightly worked, either way i would think the value would be greatly depreciated.
A man's character is his fate- Heraclitus
My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=23798

Offline Aarmale

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
  • Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #134 on: January 06, 2011, 03:53:59 pm »
This is the pic :).
Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי

Offline Matt Inglima

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
  • Quid, me anxius sum?
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #135 on: January 06, 2011, 04:02:46 pm »
I noticed this denarius of Trajan close on eBay today that looks like the portrait of the emperor has had the details of the hair and laural wreath tooled.  It also looks like the fields might have been smoothed but can't tell for sure.  No mention of the coin having been tooled was in the description.  The bidding closed at $157.50.


Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8717
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #136 on: January 06, 2011, 04:07:54 pm »
This is the pic :).

Haha, I really should have known but the preview worked. Thanks.
Andreas Reich

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2011, 04:09:31 pm »
No tooling or smoothing on that denarius, in my opinion.
Curtis Clay

Lloyd Taylor

  • Guest
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2011, 04:30:02 pm »
This is the pic :).

The guy on the obverse would have a hard time passing airport screening! 8)  And what of his one eyed faceless bull?

Offline ickster

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 388
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2011, 06:01:58 pm »
This is the pic :).

I've obviously been spending too much time looking at coins. I recognized this picture right away and had to go back through the sites I had visited to find it again. Even to this newbie, this one seemed extremely "unreal", if that's an applicable word. I noticed that it is not listed as having been tooled.

Offline Mark Z

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2256
  • Sit Julius Caesar quod vos es non.
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #140 on: January 06, 2011, 07:07:05 pm »
The look on Julian II's face is obviously from the abuse he took on this coin.

The Trajan is possibly a bit odd looking due to the fact that this was a first-year issue with Nerva perhaps still on the mind of the engravers.

I'm no expert by any means, but I agree with Mr. C. that there does not seem to be any tooling.

mz

Lloyd Taylor

  • Guest
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #141 on: January 06, 2011, 08:24:39 pm »
Nero does Elvis...yours for the bidding in an upcoming German auction

Offline Matt Inglima

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
  • Quid, me anxius sum?
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #142 on: January 06, 2011, 10:26:16 pm »
Quote
No tooling or smoothing on that denarius, in my opinion.

It might very well be original, and I hope for the buyer's sake that it is.  But to my eye there's something not quite right about the details in the hair and around the laurel leaves.  To know for sure we'd have to have the coin in hand.  It is an early Nerva-like portrait but with that rounded brow he looks like a strange human bull terrier hybrid.

Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #143 on: January 07, 2011, 07:47:47 am »
A completely tooled entry...

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4289
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #144 on: January 07, 2011, 08:02:24 am »
The Nero denarius isn't tooled but is made from modern dies. I believe that it is a Lipanoff. I know that the I recognise the reverse die as being a Lipanoff product. I need to look for the obverse. Here is an example from the fake reports:-



Martin

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4289
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #145 on: January 07, 2011, 08:47:50 am »
I suspect that the Trajan might also be a product of modern dies rather than a tooled effort. It looks to be from the same school as the following example from the fake reports.



Regards,
Martin

Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #146 on: January 07, 2011, 01:37:41 pm »
You could be right, same school, different dies.  Seller clearly reported the coin as 'completely tooled'. 

Offline Matt Inglima

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
  • Quid, me anxius sum?
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #147 on: January 07, 2011, 02:34:15 pm »
Quote
A completely tooled entry...

An offering from the same seller as the Trajan denarius (that may or may not be tooled) I posted on January 6.

Lloyd Taylor

  • Guest
Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #148 on: January 07, 2011, 03:54:42 pm »
The Nero denarius isn't tooled but is made from modern dies. I believe that it is a Lipanoff. I know that the I recognise the reverse die as being a Lipanoff product. I need to look for the obverse. Here is an example from the fake reports:-

Well spotted.  Outside my field of interest so I didn't check the fakes reports, even though it struck me as pretty weird in overall style on both sides.  But it does show the faker was an Elvis fan sufficient to be inspired by his hair.... uh! thank you veery muuuuch!

Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2011, 07:38:06 am »
Sold as lightly tooled with original patina removed.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity