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Author Topic: Who Owns Antiquity  (Read 4384 times)

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Offline Stkp

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Who Owns Antiquity
« on: January 22, 2009, 10:29:02 am »
I am in the midst of reading Who Owns Antiquity, by James Cuno (Princeton University Press, 2008).  While the author is silent concerning coins, and is principally concerned with the ability of museums to hold and acquire antiquities for the benefit of the public, it contains an excellent argument against the restrictive laws enacted by many source countries and advocated by most archaeologists.  Has anybody else read it?

Offline slokind

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 12:15:13 pm »
Cuno represents thoughtful consideration of some difficult questions.  Some others want to consider nothing but watertight arguments either pro or con.  At one extreme you have criminal trafficking.  At the other extreme some arguments that are radically anti-humanistic.  The other day I was thinking that it's analogous, to some extent, to arguing for a laissez-faire that results in criminal kinds of creative accounting vs. regulation for its own sake that is strangulating to international banking, and arguments that call civilized prophylaxis child murder vs human beings acting like bonobos, forgetting that they are not bonobos and do not live in a state of nature.
In other words, I think the mode of argument is wrong.  Cuno may not be perfect, but he is trying to be reasonable and look to the good of humane studies. 
Pat L.

aj

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 09:15:12 pm »
The book is rather excellent in its advice on so called 'problems'.

The ownership is simple. If you own the land you own what is found on it. If you have an agreement to share with the owner then it is shared as arranged. How much can we really find out from research that really has a bearing on now or the future?

Too many questions but the answers a really simple, perhaps so deceptively simple that the truth is disguised by man made complexity.

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 02:42:22 pm »
Good to see colonialism is alive and well...

I wonder how many of us would be upset (litigious?) if our great-grandfathers [insert: ancestors] were to be randomly exhumed from their resting places and placed in far-flung museums to be oggled at.
Ownership is much more complicated than AJ describes... For instance, the British colonialists claimed in totality (with some exceptions) the area of British Columbia, refusing to recognize aboriginal right to the land. Was this legitimate? If you believe that it was not, then I think you're forced to believe that the removal of their 'cultural properties' constituted theft, no matter when it occurred. Whether or not the theft becomes a big issue is largely dependent on whether or not the victims actually care... Small Egyptian artifacts? I doubt the state of Egypt will come knocking at your door. Some aboriginal groups however, do care about past injustices, and this must be respected.

To call the repatriation of stolen artifacts "sanctioned looting" doubly insults the victim.

Of course, the above argument should not be seen as a note of support for the complete return of all antiquities... those items that were bought legitimately hundreds of years ago retain that legitimacy. The book aims to support this, but we must all be cognizant of the fact that by supporting the antiquities trade (through our participation even in numismatics- yes, it's true), we are tacitly supporting the continued looting and destruction of archaeological context and knowledge. Our own addition to classical knowledge is extensive (only the most hardcore archaeologists dispute this), but national laws should be put in place to better regulate the market so that knowledge isn't missed. England's Treasure Act appears to be a good example.

Evan

Offline Bacchus

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 05:28:52 pm »
If you own the land you own what is found on it.

Without wishing to add to confusion - I wonder how much "land-owners" actually do own.  I know that If I find oil or gold in one of my fields ( 8)) I may have some "access" rights, but I doubt the UK government would say "work away there Malcolm".  I had heard that we only own the top 6 feet or so - and the government owns everything below - minerals, etc.  So I'm not sure how that translates into archaeology and what is burried beneath.  I am pretty sure I have a tumulus in one field - ( they are reasonably common) but if I report it I'd probably not be allowed near it.


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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 06:48:45 pm »
I am reminded of a quote from "Pirates of Penzance":

"Frederic, in this chapel are ancestors: you cannot deny that. With the estate, I bought the chapel and its contents. I don’t know whose ancestors they were, but I know whose ancestors they are, and I shudder to think that their descendant by purchase (if I may so describe myself) should have brought disgrace upon what, I have no doubt, was an unstained escutcheon." by Gilbert & Sillivan

I have been involved with some repatriation cases (Indian artifacts and the replevin of paper documents) and one main problem to my mind is who is to be considered the proper person that cultural patrimony should be returned to. I was amused to learn that the Navajo's laid claim to a religious artifact that had been stolen (dug) from what is now their reservation. It was an artifact dating hundreds of years before the Navajo's arrived at the location. So, should it be returned to them, or the more likely Hopi decendants of the original artifact-maker.

Offline Paleologo

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 08:31:43 am »
The ownership is simple. If you own the land you own what is found on it.
Just a small line: in Italy, what is underground (or under sea surface, within the national limits, by the way) is the STATE'S property, not the landowners'.
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Offline Paleologo

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 08:36:21 am »
His primary aim was at the decimation - sanctioned looting - of American (and other) museums by countries like Italy and Egypt.
Just another small line: does the definition of "sanctioned looting" apply also to the return of artifacts that were acquired through consistent use of illegal land excavation, theft, smuggling and fencing, as late as the 70s and 80s?
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Offline Paleologo

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 08:20:34 am »
It looks like this reply is adding a little more circumstance to your previous statements... I don't want to go into a far-flung debate on principles, I'd rather say that a case-by-case analysis is required. I can mention a couple of examples that don't fit completely into your "it's been legally acquired, so shut up" schema.

1) Parthenon marbles were legally acquired by Lord Elgin at the turn of the XIX century -- from the OTTOMAN government. Ask any Greek if they are prepared to accept the fact that the Parthenon Marbles are lost forever to their country because the Great Turk decided to be so.

2) A huge mass of African art has flowed to Europe and America because of lack of interest by, or sheer bribery to, local governments ranging from incompetent to tyrannical. I guess as interest in democracy and cultural heritage grows in those countries, people might start to ask whether damage done can be at least partially recovered.

I don't mean that these claims are necessarily right, nor that they haven't been applied to inconsistent cases (like the Gioconda, that was bought by the French King directly from the Artist). I mean there might be a different point of view on the subject. And that many of these "legal acquisitions" were done with a gun on the table. Think of the Obelisk of Axum for one. Here Italy was on the taker's side this time, and it has been returned in 2002, though it was taken away in 1936, not after 1970. Obviously returning it fired a very heated debate in Italy, but I think the decisive argument was "how can we ask for return of art if we don't agree ourselves to returning?"

Regards, P.  :)
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Offline Paleologo

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2009, 10:05:38 am »

Did Italy do the right thing to return the Obelisk - maybe. The choice was theirs and nothing was gained by doing so (goodwill is a relative thing among hypocrites.).


Maybe one thing was gained -- credibility in supporting claims to get back to Italy those pieces of art that were taken away through questionable means.

Regards, P.  :)
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Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2009, 08:46:09 pm »
Quote
Again, not supporting the looting of archaeological sites, artifacts do come onto the market and as is often pointed out by those on the other side, the context of those artifacts is lost because the objects were not properly recovered and contextual information lost. Thus the archaeological value has been diminished and thus not of use.

This seems to be circular... If one participates in selling/buying antiquities, one creates a market for them. The existence of a market inevitably attracts illicit activity, whether it be looting or forgery. Illicit activity and a market for antiquities cannot then be legitimately separated. If no market existed, there would be no reason to loot/steal/whatever, so no context could get lost (save the obvious examples of plowed up items, etc, which most states have laws regarding).

Somebody above raised a good point: you don't actually own your land in the perfect Lockean sense. The state retains ultimate sovereignty over its territory, and that includes "your" land. Thus, the state can appropriate private property when building highways etc.

Evan

Offline Volodya

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2009, 08:55:23 pm »
Maybe one thing was gained -- credibility in supporting claims to get back to Italy those pieces of art that were taken away through questionable means.
Regards, P.  :)

And, I trust, Italy will set a good example by returning the bronze horses from the Basilica di San Marco in Venice to Istanbul some day very soon!

Phil Davis

Offline Paleologo

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 08:30:07 am »

And, I trust, Italy will set a good example by returning the bronze horses from the Basilica di San Marco in Venice to Istanbul some day very soon!


Yes, of course, assuming you can prove that the Italian Republic is the legitimate successor state to the Serenissima Repubblica of 1204  ;)
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Offline moonmoth

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 01:41:38 pm »

And, I trust, Italy will set a good example by returning the bronze horses from the Basilica di San Marco in Venice to Istanbul some day very soon!


Yes, of course, assuming you can prove that the Italian Republic is the legitimate successor state to the Serenissima Repubblica of 1204  ;)

.. Not really necessary.  If you don't steal something, but get it from someone who did, it's still not yours.  The difficult part will be giving them back to the Romaion empire.

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 06:55:36 am »
I presented early on in the debate a rather simple argument which has, as it should have been, questioned over who really owns the land. Different states have different laws. Mineral rights have been mentioned for example. Some state have laws stating a depth to which you own the land or exclusion rights to minerals. Other states have introduced laws demanding that finds from antiquity be handed over. This is of course nothing more than government nonsense.

Freehold land should be yours, leasehold from the government remains government and government owned land remains government.

How many Roman villas exist in Great Britain that have been discovered and reburied? heck I watch Time team and the place seems to be covered in them.

In reality how much more do we really need to know about another Roman villa or a hoard of jewellery or coins? Well in reality not much. It keeps a fine group of people employed and masses of paperwork filling out to do anything to keep masses more people employed.

There is an old law called Stealing by Finding. I rather think governments somehow try to invoke a similar law when someone stumbles across valuables from antiquity on their land. Sorry folks it is my firm view that the belong to the freeholder. The rest is pure humbug.

As for the Elgin marbles or anything else from antiquity, the world shares in the developments from that time not just the country of the 'finding'. As civilisation spread so did the resting place of the antiquities. And if they rest on or in the land I own I believe they are mine.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 08:15:09 am »
I believe in the right to hunt for treasure.  I believe the dream of finding treasure should not be dead.  Of course there should be rules.  We have rules here in the U.S.  You can't go to Gettysburg National Park and start digging.  You can't go on another persons land without asking and start digging.  And I agree, once something significant is discovered, requiring a proper excavation following the methods of archaeologists is a good idea.  But most treasure hunting is never going to discover anything of significant value.  Some may argue that some things are so valuable they should be owned by the public.  OK, I agree.  But governments should buy them not steal them.
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2009, 05:09:43 pm »
Exactly. Nobody's going to stop detecting anyway; laws against it are unenforceable. Bannng collecting, or confiscatng finds, will only drive it underground. So ultimately it's in everyone's interests to get detectorists and officialdom working together.
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Offline museumguy

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 07:47:04 am »
If you want to hear the man himself (James Cuno), he will be at the University of Pennsylvania Museum to talk about his book on March 2.

Steve

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Offline commodus

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 08:45:43 pm »
This is what occurs when modern ethics, mores, and even interpetations of terminology (i.e. "stealing," "looting," etc.) are retroactively applied to a different era or culture (or both) with different -- often radically different -- ethics and mores. Indeed, even today there are extremely opposite views regarding such matters as are discussed above. In short, it always leads to disaster to retroactively apply the standards of the modern age to those who went before us. The idea of "repatriation" of antiquities is as foolish is the idea of their "liberation" by conquering armies in wartime.
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Offline Paleologo

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2009, 12:06:37 pm »
Quote from: commodus on March 17, 2009, 08:45:43 pm
The idea of "repatriation" of antiquities is as foolish is the idea of their "liberation" by conquering armies in wartime.

By following the same line of thought, one might argue the Catholic Church asking for pardon of atrocities perpetrated by the Inquisition is just as much nonsense. In fact, judges in the Inquisition tribunals had a perfectly sound and coherent ethical system and they usually applied it with honesty and integrity (e.g. cf. work by Gustav Henningsen on Inquisitor Alonso de Salazar Frias). However, ethics change over time (luckily I would say, or we here in Rome would still be watching gladiator fights  ::) ) This can bring to a reassessment of facts that happened in the past, that were acceptable at the time they happened, but are no more if current standards are applied. Ancient Roman warfare was rather normal for the time, it would be an endless strip of crimes by modern standards (by the way, many ancient Greeks would agree). Slavery was perfectly acceptable well into the XIX century, should we stop thinking of it as a crime? One can still judge facts of the past with modern standards, once it is clear that different ethics applied at the time those facts took place, and can sometimes act on the consequences of those facts. Some claims to repatriation fall within this line of reasoning in my opinion, although, I repeat, individual case must be taken into account (I accept some cases are sheer propaganda). 

Regards, P.  :)
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Offline commodus

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2009, 05:03:37 pm »
By following the same line of thought, one might argue the Catholic Church asking for pardon of atrocities perpetrated by the Inquisition is just as much nonsense.

Well, yes, in fact. Same with the slavery argument. We open a Pandora's box when we judge previous eras and cultures by the standards of our own. No living person perpetrated the Inquisition (or slavery, at least in Western Civilization) and no living person suffered its consequenses. Only those who casued it have the right to ask pardon and only those who suffered have the right to grant such pardon. Since all the parties involved are long dead and gone the whole matter is moot and to think that anyone in this day and age can apologize or accept such apology by proxy for the deceased is a laughable fallacy.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2009, 05:17:30 pm »
Remember modern politics and religion are prohibited topics. 

I have to say, however, after having visited Haiti and having passed through a couple extremely impoverished all black small towns in Georgia and Florida, I believe there are living people still suffering the consequenses of slavery in Western Civilization.
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Offline commodus

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 09:19:12 pm »
I had no intention of engaging in a discussion of modern politics or religion and I apologize if my comments were taken thusly. My point, in fact, is that it is a mistake for the modern era to judge the deeds of past eras.
In any case, the topic of this thread makes touching on modern politics unavoidable since it is really all about the policies of modern governments regarding the disposition of antiquities.
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Offline Paleologo

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2009, 09:30:15 am »
Joe, thanks for reminding. No offending intentions though, reference to religion was purely incidental  :)
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Who Owns Antiquity
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2009, 05:35:48 pm »
Remember modern politics and religion are prohibited topics. 

I have to say, however, after having visited Haiti and having passed through a couple extremely impoverished all black small towns in Georgia and Florida, I believe there are living people still suffering the consequenses of slavery in Western Civilization.

In all sorts of ways, yes, when you consider that in Elizabethan times Timbuktu was comparable to the London or Paris of the day. It's not hard to work out why development on the continent went into reverse!
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