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Author Topic: Group offered in German auction  (Read 491 times)

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Offline RL

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Group offered in German auction
« on: June 06, 2021, 08:08:55 am »
This is a group lot of coins for sale through a German auction house. The Kushan bronzes look fine from what I can tell from the photos but the Indo-Greek/Bactrain silver is.. well see for yourselves.

I'm not sure about what the auction house is disclosing about these coins - I don't speak German and I suspect google translate is giving a literal rather than functional translation (and I'm not familiar with the term "documentary pieces"). Do any of our German speakers see any redemptive explaination in the following (i.e. is this warning people these are replicas or similar?):

Antike: Lot 42 nicht näher bestimmter Münzen der Antike, alles Belegstücke / documentary pieces!!! Gekauft wie gesehen, bought as viewed, no return.
[differenzbesteuert]

Offline shanxi

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2021, 09:06:14 am »
explaination in the following (i.e. is this warning people these are replicas or similar?):


"Belegstücke" is a term usually used for coin reproductions, some collectors wrongly use the term also for poorly preserved coins.

It means a "Place holder". A coin you have in your collection, until you can afford a real example.

Nevertheless I think the description could be clearer.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2021, 09:18:10 am »
Belegstücke added to NumisWiki as a new page and added to our Numismatic German page.
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Offline shanxi

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2021, 09:53:48 am »
EDIT: The term could also be used if e.g. the  German central bank keeps one specimen of each coin issue as a "Belegstück". In this case, of course, real coins.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2021, 01:09:56 pm »
... "Belegstücke" is a term usually used for coin reproductions, some collectors wrongly use the term also for poorly preserved coins. ...
I would say just the other way round  :).

"Belegstück" literally means "peace of evidence" proving that something really exists. And for that it does not have to be beautiful  :).

Especially in the older numismatic literature the word is used exactly in this sense. If you scan e.g. the volumes of Jahrbuch für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte you find it regularly, and almost always in connection with genuine coins.

A replica doesn't prove anything, so a "Belegstück" should be genuine  ;).

Regards

Altamura


Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2021, 05:20:11 pm »
I believe that in NumisWiki should be mentioned that this term is in practice ambiguous and sometimes could be deceptive. If someone describes coin as a "Belegstück", would be smart to ask what he exactly means.
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Offline antoninus1

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2021, 03:59:12 am »
I have always understood "Belegstück" as a poorly preserved original coin, but there seems to be no generally agreed definition. Originally the expression was used in printing.

@altamura: "Piece" not "Peace". ;)

Offline RL

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2021, 04:15:02 am »
Thanks all, good to learn

Offline Altamura

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2021, 04:15:37 am »
... @altamura: "Piece" not "Peace". ;) ...
Oops!, you are right, sorry   :-[.

Regards

Altamura


Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2021, 05:16:33 pm »
NumisWiki is a wiki. Any one of you can add to the page, modify, or correct it.
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Offline Din X

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2021, 04:55:10 pm »
I have modified the entry in numiswiki in the way I think it is correct, I hope it is ok so.
The lot we are talking about is actually a lot of were bad tourist fakes and the seller is an auction house mainly selling stamps and not so competent if it comes to coins.

In literature it is as far as I know used the way Altamura said to prove the existance of coins of this dies or type by referring to one or more Belegstück/e meaning coins from the same dies or type.
In coin descriptions of dealers or auction houses, it is mainly used for either problem coins (for example very badly preserved coin etc.) or as in literature to prove the existance by referring to other coins from same dies or type.
A small minority of dealers or auction houses wrongly use the term "Belegstück" for fake coins in their coin descriptions.

Everyone is free to correct if there is something wrong.

Here is what I wrote to numiswiki

The German term "Belegstück" is used in numismatic context for:

1. Coins with problems (for example very bad preserved coins etc.) in coin descriptions of dealers or auction houses.
2. In literature numismatists use this term to prove the existance of coins of a specific die or of a specific type by referring to one or more specimens (Belegstück/e) form the same type or die. In many coin descriptions of dealers or auction houese it is used this way, too.
3. A small minority of dealers or auction houses wrongly use the term "Belegstück" for fake coins in their coin descriptions.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Group offered in German auction
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2021, 07:25:16 pm »
I have modified the entry again.

German: literally, piece of evidence. Belegstück is not used in English.

In older German numismatic literature, Belegstück was used to describe a specimen offered as evidence of a type or die match.

Over time, Belegstück has come to mean a poor specimen used by a collector as a place holder until a worthy coin can be acquired. As a piece of evidence of the type, it does not have to be beautiful.

The term, having come to mean "place holder" more than "piece of evidence" has also been improperly used to describe replicas. In some less reputable German numismatic sale listings, this appears to be an attempt to confuse buyers unfamiliar with the term into believing the coin is genuine.
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