Openwork belt mounts

[Kilian O]

Good evening,

This is a repost hoping to find some more out.

I know these are 2-3rd century openwork belt plates that were worn horizontally.
Been struggling to find similar examples online that are in this style and even finding symmetric ones didn't gave many results, google doesn't seem to offer much for roman militaria so I been browsing through some pdf's and finds lists.

Have taken a close-up under the light and the mounts look like you'd expect them to look. I can see some strong patina on parts of the mounts,the bronze feels/looks porous, the easy to break parts have fallen off on the majority of the mounts,the mounts are crooked (perhaps plowed).

There's no real reason for me to believe these are fake as it came in a big group lot with other genuine items dating from 2-4rd century AD. Been guarenteed of the authenticity but of course you never know sadly.

One of the mounts is hollow and i've been told thats from a wax method that got lost in time but I don't know much more of that.

The one that raised the most questions for me was the pelta-suspension hole:
The pelta-shaped endings have been added to the small side of a long, rectangular mount. This suggests, that this kind of mount could also have been worn vertically, maybe on much broader belts than usually. But as far I know, there is no archaeological evidence for belts of this period with frame-like mounts that have been worn vertically.Another explanation could be, that this kind of mount has not only been used for belts, but also for other leather straps (may be for the balteus = sword suspension worn over the shoulder or for horse harness). At least for horse harness it is clear, that identical shapes have been used for horse harness as well as for belts.It could be also possible, that these pelta-shaped loops have been used horizontally, e. g. with two items, one from the left and one for the right in order to fix a knive or a dagger. Similar reconstructions have been proposed already (with two double knobs) and such a suspension could also have been realized with two such pelta-shaped loops but these deliberations are only speculative.

Thanks, Kilian.

[Kilian O]

Some more pictures under light

[Kilian O]

Some more.

[Kilian O]

.

[Jay GT4]

The last one is illustrated in "Roman buckles and Military fittings" by Appels and Laycock fig AA8.22

The others are also in there.  Pretty decent book for buckles and plates.

[Joe Sermarini]

Nice specimens.

[Kilian O]

Thanks Joe

Jay thank you for providing me with a book that has references to all of them, you helped me out alot and gave me some peace of mind haha.
I'll try to order or to get a copy for myself. Are they just as asymmetrical as these shown here?

[Kilian O]

The last one is illustrated in "Roman buckles and Military fittings" by Appels and Laycock fig AA8.22

The others are also in there.  Pretty decent book for buckles and plates.

Hey Jay, I checked back on the references you gave me. I agree they look almost identical but isn't it strange mine are all heavy assymetrical while those in the book all symetrical? Also the loop on mine is on the bottom and not on the middle like shown in there so probably a variation. I guess i'm almost a little paranoid when it comes to authenticity but it's not like there's much pictures out there when it comes to roman militaria, only references but guess howmany variations excisted in the empire.  Feel like there's so much we still have yet to uncover.

Cheers

[SC]

Asymmetrical types are known, but they are not that common.

What worries me even more is the condition.  All similar, all perfect, no real corrosion or adhesions or solid patina.  Just the light and dark green colouring that is easy to make and found on many Balkan fakes.  Of course it is found on genuine items too but for all of these to have the same and not one to have some "un-fakeable" patina is worrying.

Look at the attached by contrast.  The patina is uneven, corrosion eating in in some small spots, some adhesions or places where the surface has raised, etc.

SC

 

[Kilian O]

Yeah i'm afraid you're right. Quite a bummer,I can see at places some brass coming through where the patina crumbled off. The only place I know for sure where I can get authentic items from is Kevin's place, but I wanted to get more items and mounts to make a collection and sometimes that goes really well and in this case I think I got burned. I wish there'd be more reputable places to get them from. Anyways thanks for pointing things out .

The other belt mount I posted earlier with buckle and the metal on the back looked good right? (It didn't came with these ones but from an antiquity dealer)  Just to make sure .

[Kilian O]

The belt in question.

[Kilian O]

Some more close-ups

[SC]

Yes, I've liked the other stuff you posted.

SC

[Kilian O]

So atleast I have one that is legit .

Glad to hear you liked the things I posted in the past