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Author Topic: Too many categories?  (Read 8513 times)

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Offline iameatingjam

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Too many categories?
« on: March 20, 2021, 05:32:34 am »
Just as an outsider on this forum, it seems like the traffic is too low to justify so many different thread categories. The posts are spread so thin. It would be easier to find new posts if they were in like 1 - 3 categories ( I know you can use most recent posts as a shortcut - but still). It seems like with the rise of social media and everything, these independent forums aren't nearly as prominent as they used to be. The most successful ones, in my anecdotal observations seem to be those who simplify the organization. What do you fine numismatists think of that?

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2021, 07:07:23 am »
Hi Jesse, I would agree.  The landscape has changed with the rise of Facebook and IG.  Many of the sites I frequent for my other interests are facing the same issues.   I think Forum could be streamlined but ultimately it is up to Joe. 

Adding a "like" button for posts would be good too.  That way people can acknowledge a post without having to type something in reply.  Motivates people to post more, especially in the members gallery section.  People today are so used to having instant validation that it can be discouraging when nobody replies or your post quickly fades away.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2021, 09:22:39 am »
Lets start with merging a two categories, which two?
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2021, 09:26:22 am »
Just out of curiosity I loaded the FORVM stats into a spread sheet and charted them (click to enlarge).

Some interesting trends there, but hard to know how to interpret all of them.

- New topics and New posts are totally in sync which make sense
- New posts:New topics ratio seems fairly constant, currently at about 5:1 (1000:200), down a bit from 7:1 (4000:600) pre 2013
- New members just flatlined in 2015 (why??), but oddly doesn't seem to have impacted other stats other than Page Views which peaked at that time, but since 2017 has been climbing again
- Most online seems to be in a general long term uptrend, despite New topics/posts trending down
- Page views have almost recovered back to what they were in 2013 before New topics/posts started trending down. Maybe these are search engine bots rather than people?

Summing it all up does seem to point to lack of user engagement... Plenty of people online, plenty of page views, but new topics/posts down to 1/3 of what it used to be in the pre-2013 hayday.

I see that CoinTalk, which is relatively vibrant, seems to have addressed this by a posting culture/protocol where people starting topics invite others to reply with a specific related type of post. This at least gives beginners, who may not feel confident enough to start new topics, an opportunity to post, but the downside seems to be that it encourages more of a "show and tell" environment rather than focused discussion.

The new topics trend seems likely to continue, certainly unless something is changed. The lurkers will have nothing to read unless they are willing to put something into it and provide a reason for people to post, at least some feedback that they are not wasting their time.

Ben

Offline SC

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2021, 09:49:31 am »
Personally, I find the value of Forum to be its utility as a long term resource, not its daily traffic.  And that utility is built on the fact there are a large number of specialist threads.

This is very different, and very much more useful in the long term, than forums like cointalk where the messages are all jumbled into fewer threads.  While cointalk does appear to be largely show-and-tell or plain social chat there are also many very well thought out serious researched posts there.  But if you don't read them within 24 hours they fade into oblivion and you are forced to try to find them with a not very good search system.

At least on Forum you can go to a thread - say uncleaned - and scroll through titles without having to search.  Plus Forum's search function is quite good.

Ultimately, the question then seems to be not "How should Forum be structured" but "What should it be for". 

Bottom line it is Joe's site and he has always borne the work and financial burden.  And I assume one of his main interests must be to keep up traffic related to his business - which supports the whole thing - and that requires a degree of popularity.

Ben's analysis supports my gut beliefs.  Forum is in risk of stagnating somewhat.  The "in things" these days appear to be more along the lines of "There's a full moon today, join me in showing your coins with moons on them" - which cointalk currently leads on - and "Help ID my coin" - which I think Forum still leads on.

I don't think merging a couple of categories, or even reducing the number of categories by 50% will fix the problem.

In terms of the specific issue Jesse raised, maybe one answer is to make a "View recent posts" or "View posts since your last visit" much more prominent.

As for the longer term, I don't know.  Not sure if it possible or desirable to make Forum as competitive in the "chat" venue as cointalk or facebook.  Can we build more on what we do??

Shawn
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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2021, 11:35:41 am »
The membership stats are no longer working. I am trying to get the board updated but it is quite a challenge.
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2021, 12:10:08 pm »
I tend to agree with Shawn that it is nice to have all of these areas but they are not being fully utilized and it can be confusing.  I know I forget sometimes where a thread I've replied to is located.  I don't think there is any comparison between Cointalk and Forum.  Cointalk is more for showing off your coins, Forum has a more serious note to it.  I get frustrated with Cointalk because of the negative bashing of dealers and bad advice but I like that it is lively.

The "like" button for a thread modernizes the discussion board and I like that about Cointalk.


For starters I think all of the "Antiquities" categories at Forum can be put together into one section without causing too much issues.

Administration Announcements and Discussion Board and Website Help could be combined.

But just my opinion.


Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2021, 01:12:42 pm »
Personally, I find the value of Forum to be its utility as a long term resource, not its daily traffic.  And that utility is built on the fact there are a large number of specialist threads.

 +++ [I like this post]

My personal wish: please, do not try to compete with Facebook!
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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2021, 01:59:22 pm »

My personal wish: please, do not try to compete with Facebook!

 +++ +++ +++ +++ +++

Offline Mat

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2021, 02:38:52 pm »
I don't want to see a "like" system installed on here. I personally despite the he** out of it on cointalk & I think it's taken the lazy approach to actually leaving comments when someone posts a new purchase to share.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2021, 02:53:40 pm »
I tend to agree with Shawn that it is nice to have all of these areas but they are not being fully utilized and it can be confusing.  I know I forget sometimes where a thread I've replied to is located.  I don't think there is any comparison between Cointalk and Forum.  Cointalk is more for showing off your coins, Forum has a more serious note to it.  I get frustrated with Cointalk because of the negative bashing of dealers and bad advice but I like that it is lively.

The "like" button for a thread modernizes the discussion board and I like that about Cointalk.


For starters I think all of the "Antiquities" categories at Forum can be put together into one section without causing too much issues.

Administration Announcements and Discussion Board and Website Help could be combined.

But just my opinion.


The antiquities boards have moderators that know the types. Combining them would eliminate the very useful help those moderators provide.
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2021, 03:14:19 pm »

My personal wish: please, do not try to compete with Facebook!

It's not trying to compete with Facebook, it's about being modern with the way people consume information.  Forum is the best place for ancient coins online.  Period.  But why are responses and conversations down from just a few years ago?  There was a poll for gallery of the year that only got 20 votes!  People are not contributing like they used to.  They've moved to Cointalk.

It saddens me when people on Cointalk reference Forum's great resources but don't do anything to contribute over here.  Everyone uses Joe's resources and post coins to their galleries but they don't even make a post on Forum anymore, they do it on Cointalk.  Why?

This Forum has always been good to me, and I try to support Joe through purchases and being active here.  I rarely post on the other board.


The antiquities boards have moderators that know the types. Combining them would eliminate the very useful help those moderators provide.

They could still be moderators.   :)

Also look at how many pinned threads there are!


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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2021, 03:25:03 pm »
No, that would force every moderator to read the posts that have nothing to do with their specialty.
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Offline iameatingjam

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2021, 04:32:22 pm »
Well you all know better than me the specifics of this forum and how it operates but just want to point out there's more ways to organize threads other than keeping them tucked away in different categories. In some of the newer forum platforms there is an option to put in a prefix before the subject of a thread and you can set predetermined options for this, which can color code them or use a graphic border to add some visual distinction... which would make it easier for experts to gravitate towards threads which fit their expertise, but at the same time keeping all the threads more accessible to everyone.

Again, I'm just some guy, not trying to act like I know best or anything. Thats just my thoughts coming to this forum and feeling like the format is kind of outdated.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2021, 04:35:45 pm »
Quote
  Personally, I find the value of Forum to be its utility as a long term resource, not its daily traffic.  And that utility is built on the fact there are a large number of specialist threads.

I agree with this.

Offline iameatingjam

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2021, 04:38:17 pm »
 :<a href='../numiswiki/view.asp?key=cross' target='_blank'>cross</a>:
Lets start with merging a two categories, which two?

Are you asking me? I don't know. If I were you I would start looking at the categories with lowest traffic, and see if any of the two are similar in their subject matter.

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2021, 04:46:44 pm »
Quote from: Jesse F on March 20, 2021, 04:32:22 pm
Well you all know better than me the specifics of this forum and how it operates but just want to point out there's more ways to organize threads other than keeping them tucked away in different categories. In some of the newer forum platforms there is an option to put in a prefix before the subject of a thread and you can set predetermined options for this, which can color code them or use a graphic border to add some visual distinction... which would make it easier for experts to gravitate towards threads which fit their expertise, but at the same time keeping all the threads more accessible to everyone.

Again, I'm just some guy, not trying to act like I know best or anything. Thats just my thoughts coming to this forum and feeling like the format is kind of outdated.

It sounds like throwing all the books out of your entire library organised in tidy sections into one big pile on the floor and trying to guess what is which by sticking colored sticky notes on their covers. A bit childish, a bit scary, definitely making it difficult to use.

If we are to tear down something that is orderly just because a mess is fashionable, this is not the best way to go. Maybe it's good for the forum owner to say if the reduction of traffic is actually bothering him. If not, then the discussion about introducing a new, fashionable confusion is pointless.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2021, 05:08:04 pm »
Hi folks,

I also feel that Forum shouldn't try to compete with or emulate Facebook. I think that would be a terrible mistake.

I actually like the academic nature of Forum.

I prefer Forum with many different categories. I feel that it is an error to combine categories, but that is Joe's decision. In a related matter, I noticed that Joe merged the Website section into the general Ancient Coin Forum section, and my website thread is now located there. What was wrong with keeping all of the website-related threads in their own separate section?

Joe raised a valid point about individual moderators having skills in specific areas.

Meepzorp

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2021, 05:41:05 pm »
I also like the academic nature of Forum.  It's a much more serious site.  But many of the new coin posts that have real value are not being posted here.  They are over on the other board where they get more discussion.  Case in point.  David Atherton has posted several important Flavian coins in his gallery here on Forum.  He also made a few posts about them here, yet there has been very little response from the community, just the same faithful few.  It's like discussion has faded away.  Of course there are exceptions.

Also 23 pinned threads just in this section alone.  The first new thread is second last on the list at the bottom of the page!  Could this not be condensed into a few simple, to the point sentences?


But again, this is Joe's playground.  I'm just happy that it is available to us.      

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2021, 05:48:59 pm »
Hi folks,

Heliodromus wrote: "I see that CoinTalk, which is relatively vibrant, seems to have addressed this by a posting culture/protocol where people starting topics invite others to reply with a specific related type of post. This at least gives beginners, who may not feel confident enough to start new topics, an opportunity to post, but the downside seems to be that it encourages more of a "show and tell" environment rather than focused discussion."

otlichnik wrote: "Ben's analysis supports my gut beliefs.  Forum is in risk of stagnating somewhat.  The "in things" these days appear to be more along the lines of "There's a full moon today, join me in showing your coins with moons on them" - which cointalk currently leads on - and "Help ID my coin" - which I think Forum still leads on."

I would like to add my thoughts, and I hope I don't ruffle too many feathers. In the recent past (about 1-2 years ago), I had some issues with a small minority of Forum members who "attacked" me because they didn't agree with my posts, particularly in the ID Help section. One long-term Forum member (who is not well liked here) actually publicly defamed me several times during that time period. Joe had to warn him several times to stop attacking and defaming me to get him to stop doing that. During that time period, I felt like I was walking on eggshells every time I logged into Forum. It's like I was afraid to exhale.

Because of these attacks, I seriously considered permanently leaving Forum. The main reason I stayed is because I had too much invested in Forum (my website). If it wasn't for my website, I probably would have permanently left Forum because of these repeated attacks on my character. At that time, I discussed these issues with a close Forum friend of mine (you can probably guess who it is) off-site. He agreed with me. He also told me that these types of things (the attacks on me, etc.) are what caused him to post very infrequently here in Forum and to post much more frequently in CoinTalk.

At that time, Joe and I exchanged numerous PMs. Among the primary issues I raised were the very things contained in Helio's and otl"s quotes above. In fact, I even mentioned CoinTalk in my PMs to Joe. Joe didn't agree with my suggestions to stop the stagnation of Forum, to stop the hostile environment here at times, to stop the nastiness at times (#1 rule - "be nice"), etc. And he basically stated that I was wrong. This forced me to modify my style of posting, especially in the ID Help section. For this reason, I am glad that Helio, otl, and others have publicly stated here what I was suggesting to Joe in private at that time. These posters basically repeated my suggestions to Joe during that time period. This demonstrates that there is some support for these changes (in addition to my opinion).

I like Forum's academic nature. However, in my opinion, I don't think it would be a crime to create more of a "show and tell" atmosphere in Forum. I think Forum's academic nature and lack of "show and tell" atmosphere is very off-putting to potential new members.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2021, 05:51:44 pm »
I also like the academic nature of Forum.  It's a much more serious site.  But many of the new coin posts that have real value are not being posted here.  They are over on the other board where they get more discussion.  Case in point.  David Atherton has posted several important Flavian coins in his gallery here on Forum.  He also made a few posts about them here, yet there has been very little response from the community, just the same faithful few.  It's like discussion has faded away.  Of course there are exceptions.

But again, this is Joe's playground.  I'm just happy that it is available to us.      

Hi Jay,

I agree with you 100%. You posted as I was typing my last post (above).

Meepzorp

Offline iameatingjam

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2021, 05:55:24 pm »
I don't know why everybody is talking about 'competiting with facebook' I don't think anybody is suggested that, I certainly didn't. I just brought up facebook as one of the example reasons why traffic to smaller independent forums is less than it used to be.

There are tons of forums I used to post on in 00s relating to all kinds of things from music to computers to pharmaceuticals. All of these places don't get the attention they used to because of sites like facebook and instagram and twitter occupying people's attention.

 Obviously a coin forum doesn't want to compete with these businesses that doesn't make sense, I'm talking about adapting to new conditions. Typically when things change, those who adapt do the best. When a new user comes here and doesn't get a lot of attention on their post, they are likely to leave and go elsewhere. You get more attention to your post when you narrow the focus.

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2021, 05:58:08 pm »
Meep, I think Forum does a far better job at policing posts than Cointalk. :police:  In fact that is a major reason why I don't post there but prefer it here!  

But that also means that Forum is perceived as more rigid because of the rules.

Jesse  +1  I agree.  My Ferrari website that had thousands of users a day is down to a few posts. 

Nobody said to make Forum like Facebook. 

Offline iameatingjam

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2021, 06:06:12 pm »


It sounds like throwing all the books out of your entire library organised in tidy sections into one big pile on the floor and trying to guess what is which by sticking colored sticky notes on their covers. A bit childish, a bit scary, definitely making it difficult to use.

If we are to tear down something that is orderly just because a mess is fashionable, this is not the best way to go. Maybe it's good for the forum owner to say if the reduction of traffic is actually bothering him. If not, then the discussion about introducing a new, fashionable confusion is pointless.

I think of it more like facing a library with a dwindling supply of books, and re-organizing it so that the books are organized onto different shelves based on category, rather than in different rooms that you can only access by going up stairs or in an elevator. If the remaining books are easier to access by decreasing the amount of time it takes to go from one section to another, that would cause more people to stick around ( as people like convenience), the more people would take out books, the more traffic to justify replacing the supply of books. Again, its none of my business, but it tends to be those who adapt to changing conditions who succeed, not those who dig their heels in.

Its easy to add some kind of variable that can distinguish one kind of post for another, you could use this variable to display posts in a different order or call it during searches to find the kind of posts you want faster.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2021, 06:19:17 pm »
My Ferrari website that had thousands of users a day is down to a few posts.

Hi Jay,

That is true for many message boards. A Mustang GT message board that I am a member of has suffered the same fate in the past few years, but it is much worse than just a few posts a day. It is down to a few posts a month!

Meepzorp

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2021, 06:21:31 pm »

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2021, 07:17:42 pm »
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Re: Too many categories?
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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2021, 07:54:48 pm »

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2021, 09:32:02 pm »
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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2021, 10:20:20 pm »

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2021, 11:24:59 pm »
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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2021, 12:55:15 am »

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Re: Too many categories?
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Re: Too many categories?
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Re: Too many categories?
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Re: Too many categories?
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Re: Too many categories?
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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2021, 10:03:25 pm »
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Re: Too many categories?
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« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2021, 09:59:22 am »
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« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2021, 10:06:01 am »

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« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2021, 12:27:38 pm »

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« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2021, 03:26:50 pm »
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« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2021, 06:51:41 pm »
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« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2021, 06:53:34 pm »
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« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2021, 08:08:28 pm »

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« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2021, 05:10:24 pm »

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« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2021, 05:43:58 pm »
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« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2021, 06:21:50 pm »

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« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2021, 07:58:15 pm »
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!

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« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2021, 08:28:33 pm »

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« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2021, 08:14:39 pm »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

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« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2021, 03:51:35 pm »
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« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2021, 04:19:14 pm »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

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« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2021, 04:30:55 pm »
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« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2021, 07:01:00 am »

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« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2021, 08:39:56 am »
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« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2021, 08:58:58 am »
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« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2021, 05:22:25 pm »

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« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2021, 06:06:00 pm »

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« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2021, 10:29:43 pm »

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« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2021, 08:48:12 am »

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« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2021, 11:05:08 pm »

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« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2021, 12:02:12 am »

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« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2021, 12:11:37 am »

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« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2021, 12:15:11 am »

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« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2021, 04:51:47 pm »
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« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2021, 05:00:13 pm »
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« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2021, 11:43:58 pm »

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« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2021, 07:10:33 am »

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« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2021, 07:45:45 am »

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« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2021, 08:15:44 am »
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« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2021, 08:38:43 am »

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« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2021, 03:49:26 pm »

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« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2021, 03:54:43 pm »

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« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2021, 04:00:29 pm »

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« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2021, 04:13:56 pm »
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« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2021, 06:06:49 pm »

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Re: Too many categories?
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2021, 12:24:15 am »

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« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2021, 01:27:32 am »

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« Reply #92 on: April 09, 2021, 05:31:54 pm »
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!

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« Reply #93 on: April 13, 2021, 11:46:11 am »

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« Reply #94 on: April 13, 2021, 11:45:41 pm »
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« Reply #95 on: April 14, 2021, 09:36:31 am »

 

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