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Author Topic: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?  (Read 714 times)

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Offline CL

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Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« on: March 17, 2020, 11:44:52 am »
Hello there,

Anyone has any idea what this drachm could be? The obverse seems to be from a coin from Side (Helmeted head of Athena), and the reverse a coin of Lysimachos (seated Athena), I have never seen something like that before.

3.90g and 19mm in diameter, picture of the coin:

I would appreciate your help.

Offline CL

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2020, 05:45:27 pm »
Fake based on what?
The reverse seems to be a die match with an authentic Lysimachos drachm

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 12:31:00 am »
Please upload photos as an attachment to post rather than linking to an image on another site. I attached the two photos above. Thanks.

I don't recall seeing anything like it before.
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Offline Pscipio

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 03:44:24 am »
The style looks modern to me and the combination of an obverse of an Alexander III-stater with a reverse of Lysimachos makes no sense. Also, the weight on both coins is wrong, the first is too light, the second way too heavy (5.5 g). They should both be of Attic weight, i.e. around 4.3 g.

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Offline Altamura

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 04:10:56 am »
… The style looks modern to me and the combination of an obverse of an Alexander III-stater with a reverse of Lysimachos makes no sense. ...
There are also Lysimachos staters with an Athena with corinthian helmet on the obverse, but this increases the sense only marginally  :).

But I agree in thinking that it is a fake.

… Fake based on what?
The reverse seems to be a die match with an authentic Lysimachos drachm ...
The fact that this has been sold in an auction (this one: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1781289 , please indicate your sources) does not prove that it is authentic  :-\. And the fact that the seller didn't find any reference in the literature for this coin does not give confidence.

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Altamura

Offline Arados

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 11:45:06 am »

And to add more misery to whether the coin is authentic or not. A sealed flan crack on the reverse at 5 o'clock, casting bubbles, excess material around the coins edge and artificial dirt.

Martin

Offline OldMoney

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 01:33:49 pm »
Fake based on what?
The reverse seems to be a die match with an authentic Lysimachos drachm

The coin you reference is also a modern fake.

As I mentioned to you in reply to your message to me, I suspected it was a fake from the outset.

The image you supplied, and the link you offered just adds to that conclusion.

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Offline CL

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2020, 09:53:29 am »
Hello,

I forgot to say that Mr. Murphy indeed confirmed it is a fake s couple of days ago . I am surprised the Lysimachos drachm is a fake as well, it is sold by a reasonable reputable auction house. Oh well, if I doubt myself best to not even consider buying it. I will place it in the fake coin reports, together with the Lysimachos drachm.

Offline Din X

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2021, 04:49:49 pm »
I think that these are recut transfer die fakes.
There exist authentic ones which look almost like die matches except some small details, some hair details were recut wrong, the dotted border removed on obverse and the k added to reverse (on the reverse much was recut).
These fakes share too many details to be not connected together, to copy this good by hand would be very difficult to impossible and would not bring any real advantage.
But to recut details of transfer dies is pretty easy and makes very much sense.
One the fake the bead on the back of his head is not connected to his hair anymore and looks strange, on authentic ones it is but on later dies states of course due to die wear the connection is not so sharp as it was in fresh dies (second picture).

The basic style of these fakes is ok, meaning the details which were copied from authentic coins.
The recut hair and all recut details are of course terrible  and different style than real authentic coins.

Picture 1 the fake (top picture)
Picture 2-4 (below) authentic coins

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Lysimachos/side drachm mule?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2021, 05:41:09 pm »
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