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Author Topic: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend  (Read 2790 times)

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Offline Alex S2

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Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« on: January 30, 2018, 06:21:05 pm »
Dear Friends,

Please take a look at the reverse legend of this coin.

There is an "extra" smaller letter "s" in PAX AVGVsSTI

Has anyone seen anything similar?

I will greatly appreciate any feedback.

Thanks.

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2018, 06:22:32 pm »
forgot the photos

Offline Callimachus

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2018, 07:12:30 pm »
Nice coin.
Based on the lettering of the obverse, I'd guess it is from the mint of Antioch. The letters seem large, upright, and crowded in comparison to those from Rome which seem smaller and often lean slightly to the right.

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2018, 08:03:08 pm »
Nice coin.
Based on the lettering of the obverse, I'd guess it is from the mint of Antioch. The letters seem large, upright, and crowded in comparison to those from Rome which seem smaller and often lean slightly to the right.

Callimachus , thanks a lot for your comment!

I believe this is must be the type?
http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.4.gor_iii.189

But what do you think of that extra "s" in the inscription?
Why is it "cramped" in between "V" and "S"?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2018, 08:27:48 pm »
The second S is the intended state: the right spacing, size, thickness.

The first S is too small and too close to the V, so had to be corrected. How that undersized S got there in the first place, however, is hard to explain!
Curtis Clay

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2018, 08:58:54 pm »
The second S is the intended state: the right spacing, size, thickness.

The first S is too small and too close to the V, so had to be corrected. How that undersized S got there in the first place, however, is hard to explain!

Thanks, Curtis! Have you ever seen  by chance anything like this or similar on any other roman coin?

If this coin was struck at Antioch, can we suppose that the engraver possibly didn't no much Latin so might not had understanding of the meaning of what he was engraving and eventually, after finishing the legend, he somehow realized that he "missed" one letter "s", so he cramped it there? Or am I just fantasizing too much?


Offline Callimachus

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2018, 10:43:24 pm »
Quote from Alex S2: ". . . after finishing the legend, he somehow realized that he "missed" one letter "s", so he cramped it there? Or am I just fantasizing too much?"

Yes, you are fantasizing too much.  The word only has one S in it: AVGVSTI not AVGVSSTI. As Curtis said, the second (largerer) S is the right size and the spacing between the V and T is correct. So the first (smaller) S was likely punched into the die at the wrong place, and never removed from the die when the S was punched in the correct place.

There are numerous spelling errors found on Roman coins, and the errors on coins of the eastern mints are usually attributed to a lack of knowledge of the Latin alphabet. There is a thread here about such errors, and you might want to post this coin there too.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=64853.0

Offline AMICTUS

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 05:05:43 am »
Can an overstrike on a previous denarius be completly excluded ? The weight could decide.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 11:09:07 am »
So the first (smaller) S was likely punched into the die at the wrong place, and never removed from the die when the S was punched in the correct place.
But why on earth would the engraver or letter-puncher begin with the undersized S in the middle of the legend? Before and after that undersized S, there are no traces of other letters engraved too small or out of place, and then corrected.
Curtis Clay

Offline Callimachus

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 11:49:17 am »
I don't know, Curtis.

I am assuming here that the letters were punched into the die -- perhaps I am wrong on this.

If I am correct, did the mint have different sets of letter punches that were different sizes for legends that were longer or shorter? On the obverse legend, the letter A occurs four times, and all are different. The one of CAES is obviously shorter than the one of AVG. The A of ANT is obviously narrower than the one of AVG. How did this happen?

Or: The sides of the letters on Roma coins are not perpendicular to the field; they are angled up toward each other. This makes a cross section of a letter sort of wedge-shaped -- narrower at the top than at the bottom. If a wedge-shaped letter is not punched deep enough into the die, the incuse letter on the die will be shallower and smaller than a letter punched in to the normal depth. The shadow of the small S on this coin perhaps shows it to be not as "high" as the large S.

When putting the legends on the dies, did they start on the left (or right) side and work around to the other? Or did they start at both ends and work toward the middle? If working up from the end of the legend, I can see accidentally starting the S a bit too far up from the T (especially if the V was not there) and then correcting it by putting it in its correct location.




Offline OldMoney

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 11:47:26 am »
My first thoughts upon seeing this coin, and this is by no means anything approaching a
firm hypothesis, was that perhaps the engraver may have originally erred in 'his' spelling,
producing "AVGSTI" (with the G and S to either side of the staff).

Later (or perhaps almost immediately) realising the error, having to remove/obscure/erase
the original S, and then adding the required replacement 'VS' in the limited space remaining
(perhaps shortening the staff at the same time).

This is, of course, little more than wild speculation, and a bit of fun, but it would be nice to
see whether there are any examples out there that may be from the same die in an earlier,
uncorrected state (if such a thing even exists - which it probably doesn't!).

Some errors are known, I imagine that Bland would be the best resource for such things.

Walter
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Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
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Offline AMICTUS

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 12:16:48 pm »
Without putting too much emphasis on the hypothesis of an overstrike on a previously minted denarius it seems that traces of previous lettering can be spotted on the obverse of the coin in particular under the IMP and the M. On the reverse the S could be a remain -by chance- of an obverse legend. For exemple its place could fit well with the S of PiVS in the last obverse legend for Maximinus ended by AVG GERM.

Offline antesignanvm

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 03:22:23 pm »
I remembered something similar, I have found the image.
This denarius of Gordianus II Africanus with small S on the obverse.
---In front of the insigna---

Offline AMICTUS

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2018, 05:02:32 am »
Yes. But is there not also a small G (or C) at the end of the obverse legend (after AVG).

Offline timka

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2021, 11:02:09 am »
Hi!

Let me follow up on this thread. I came accross this coin, and it appeared modern forgery. The coin feels immediately wrong when in hand, it feels like cast, nothing like crispy struck antoninianus. It has wrong edge, - polished, and without signs of minting edge cracks. Also, there are certain areas under busts that hint casting (marked in color on the photos).

Mistery solved. Very dengerous fake.


Offline timka

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2021, 01:49:05 pm »
should it be added in fake report?... or should the thread be moved to Fake Coins and Fake Sellers for discussion? Is there  a moderator to help with this?

Offline Callimachus

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2021, 05:00:14 pm »
I'm not quite sure of the point you are trying to make. It is not obvious (at least to me).

The discussion was about the small S in the reverse legend. Does this second coin have that small S too? You do not show a picture of the complete reverse.

The two pictures of part of the reverse: are they of the same coin? The fields of one look very smooth compared to the fields on the other.

Please explain why the red and yellow circles have been drawn on the counterfeit coin and their relationship to the obverse of the first coin.

It appears the obverse die might be the same for both coins. But if one is the host coin, and the other counterfeit, that would be expected.
The first coin certainly appears to be genuine (at least to me), the second one appears to be counterfeit.

. . .

Offline timka

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2021, 02:46:38 am »
This is the same coin! but since 2018 it developed some patina, or someone added that black patina. Please carefully compare the pictures! Later I will add proper pics incl reverse if you you would like.

I marked with circles the areas with casting bubbles, which are the same in the original photos (1st coin, as you think). Again, the 1st coin is not the host coin, it all the same coin!

I bought it from the person who made this first post, and now I'm in process of returning the coin. Again, a. it feels cast in hand, not as minted antoninianus. b.. the edge is totally wrong in this coin, polished, without any characteristic cracks., c. there are cirtain areas with bubbles in the field of the coin (circled).

Do you still think it is OK coin on the 1st photo? , giving the fact it is the same coin.

As I wrote earlier, this is very dengerous counterfeit, which is very tough to judge only from photos. You need to hold this coin in hand and see the edge.

As for S, I have no idea, may be it remained from the host coin that needs to be found, or may be  it was a joke from counterfieter.

Thank you for your post.


Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2021, 02:51:08 am »
I was the original owner of this coin and I purchased it from Heritage Auctions as a part of a group lot of antoniniani. Recently I consigned this coin to a dealer, from whom timka purchased the coin.

The coin with dark obverse patina posted by timka is the same coin I posted here originally. It developed this dark patina on the obverse after laying on a piece of particleboard (chipboard) in my workshop for some time. The reverse patina didn't really change.

Although I'm not convinced by timka's arguments, if this coin indeed turns out to be a forgery, the money would be refunded without a question. It's just I don't see this to be the case. I would highly appreciate if other experienced Forum members look into this matter and share their thoughts. And also I would like to ask timka to make higher resolution photos.


Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2021, 03:38:13 am »
Here is the link to this coin at an online auction, where timka purchased the coin:

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]


And here is the link to the original lot with this coin purchased at Heritage:

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2021, 03:57:13 am »
Here are the photos made by a dealer right before the coin was auctioned:

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2021, 04:10:39 am »
As with regards to patina, as I previously mentioned the coin spent some time (more than 2 years) on a chipboard in my workshop. There was another coin with this one on the same board that developed this dark patina on one side, although was bright and lustrous originally. So I'm posting the photos here as well for the reference.


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2021, 10:26:33 am »
The coin looks authentic to me. Timka's arguments against it do not convince me.
Curtis Clay

Offline timka

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2021, 11:43:20 am »
The coin looks authentic to me. Timka's arguments against it do not convince me.

Curtis, thank you for getting back.

Will it be OK if I send it for authentication to HJB?.. Would be great if you hold it in hand and see the edge. and if the coin is OK, HJB can sell it then. Earlier, I requested Joe about authentification service on this coin, though he has not replied yet.

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2021, 06:11:05 pm »

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Gordian antoninianus with weird reverse legend
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2021, 07:49:37 pm »

 

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