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Author Topic: Bust of senate, but which senate?  (Read 2516 times)

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Offline Jochen

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Bust of senate, but which senate?
« on: April 11, 2006, 02:34:38 pm »
Hi!

Coins of quasi-autonomous cities often show the bust of senate on the obv. Now I wonder which kind of senate could it be:
- the personification of the senate of Rome as in SPQR
- the personification of the senate of that city (I assume that this city has a senate like
  Rome)
- or a pic of the abstract idea of the senate

The example below is from Germe in Lydia, BMC 1. The obv. shows a youthful senate. The legend is IERA CVNKLHTO = holy senate.

Any opinion highly welcomed!

Best regards

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2006, 03:22:17 pm »
Jochen,
     As I understand the matter, CVNKLHTOC means the Roman Senate, which under the empire still had considerable authority in provincial affairs.  IEPA shows the respect and veneration that a servant (the provincial city) owes to his master!
     The local assemblies were called BOVLH, and are sometimes also depicted on the coins.  IEPA BOVLH is also not uncommon; they still exercised a lot of local control!
     See Melville Jones, Dict. of Greek coins, Synkletos and Boule; Historia Numorum, Index III of Remarkable Inscriptions.
Curtis Clay

Offline Jochen

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2006, 04:00:11 pm »
Thanks, Curtis, for making this clear!

Best regards

Offline Dapsul

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2006, 04:07:26 pm »
Jochen,
I had the idea too to discuss about the synkletos-coins when I read the thread about the demos-coins https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=27561.0
I considered it a good idea tho see each others demoi and to show the own (I don't have a demos). But since it is a phenomenon comparable with the depictions of the synkletos or the boule or Roma, it would even be worthwhile thinking about the origin of those and about the areas in which they appear. I don't know a study about this specific topic. By the way, I'm totally d'accord with Curtis that synkletos is always the Roman senate. I don't know a case (on coins, in inscriptions or wherever) in which it is not so.
Last but not least, one of my synkletoi, from Maionia, Lydia, BMC 13, rv. Artemis Ephesia, EPI EYXENOY MAIONWN.

Frank

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2006, 04:16:43 pm »
       Vana Komninos, article Boule, Lex. Iconogr. Myth. Class., confirms the distinction that I and Frank make between Boule and Synkletos:  "Personification of the local council, Boule must be distinguished from Synkletos, which stands for the Roman Senate."  She refers to an article by G. Forni in MemLinc 1954.
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Offline Jochen

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2006, 06:14:09 pm »
Here is another of my senates. It is an AE26 from Trajanopolis struck under the legate Timotheus, cf. Sears 5125. I wonder why the senate is always depicted as a young man although senate is derived from senex wich means Latin 'old man' and senatus is the assembly of old men!

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Offline Dapsul

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2006, 01:16:50 pm »
Thank you, Curtis, for the hint to Forni. I've already ordered the volume. And another one of my Senates, AE 20 from Hadrianotherai/Mysia, BMC 1; SNG Aulock 1146. Pscipio will find it interesting, because he has the demos-version with the same revers in his gallery.

Frank

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2006, 06:10:28 pm »
Pscipio will find it interesting, because he has the demos-version with the same revers in his gallery.

Indeed, here it is:

Hadrianotherai AE20, 3. Century AD.
Obv: IEPOC DHMOC, bust of demos right.
Rev: ADRIANOQERITWN, Asklepios standing, head turned left, leaning on serpent-entwinded staff.
Ø 20 mm, 2.67 g.
AMNG 555

Lars
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Offline rick fox

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2006, 03:35:49 pm »
Curtis - Were any of these "Senate" coins produced after Diocletian?  I cannot see anyone minting these during or after his reign because the Senate was being squeezed out of the affairs of the empire.
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Offline Pscipio

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2006, 03:48:09 pm »
It was Diocletian who closed all remaining provincial mints, so there aren't any provincial coins from after his reign at all. Also, minting coins with a senate bust has nothing to do with the actual influence of the senate, but more with honouring Rome as a whole, IMO.

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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Bust of senate, but which senate?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2006, 04:59:52 pm »
It was Diocletian who closed all remaining provincial mints, so there aren't any provincial coins from after his reign at all.

Essentially true, although there are still coins from the client kingdom of Bosporus as late as Licinius & Constantine, which fit into my personal definition of "Provincial".

Steve

 

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