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Author Topic: "The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples  (Read 50250 times)

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Offline kklinejr

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2003, 09:46:52 pm »
You know, I guess I just never wanted to run the numbers in my head before, but counterfeiting even the most common coins, such as these, can produce huge profit increases for a European wholesaler.  If it costs 5-10 cents a pop to produce one of these (after dies/casts, copper purchase and repatination), and the average supplier sells them at 65 cents - $1.00 each... the profit margin per piece could be anywhere from 60 - 95 cents.  Multiply thaty profit  by an order of 1000 or 10000, and we're looking at $600-950 profit per small order of 1000, and up to maybe $6500 for a large 10,000 coin order.  Now, of course, they would mix these in with real uncleaned ancients, but a wholesaler could double both his stock and his profit with these cheap, little things - IF, and ONLY IF, NO ONE NOTICED THEM  ;D  ;D  ;)

Ken
Donate unwanted ancient coins to your local schools and watch ancient history come alive!

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2003, 11:15:35 am »
I apologize for the poor quality of the pictures.  I found a total of 14 fakes from my last two groups of coins.  The first pictures are two of three identical Licinius Juniors.  Too bad.  All the coins being pictured have been re-toned.

Stan

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2003, 11:16:15 am »
the reverses

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2003, 11:17:13 am »
A very nice...I thought...pair of Justinian I Byzantine coins.

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2003, 11:17:43 am »

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2003, 11:19:31 am »
A pair of Constantines.

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2003, 11:20:24 am »
reverses

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2003, 11:23:25 am »
And last, but not least, a pair of Constans campgates showing different obverses but identical reverses.  One looks "almost" correct, but the reverse isn't right.

I haven't listed the other fakes since they have been well documented already, but I seem to have them all.

Stan

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2003, 11:26:20 am »
reverses

Offline saholz

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How about Shakespeare with a chicken?
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2003, 04:56:28 pm »
A nice Septimus Severus from Moesia with what's supposed to be an eagle reverse.  Maybe this one was intended to be an advertising token for Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Stan

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2003, 04:57:24 pm »
And now for the chicken....

Offline Rhetor

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2003, 10:52:50 am »
Dear FORVM members,

I am a new collector and recently purchased a bulk lot of uncleaneds.  I found the following coin in the lot (see attached image), and given the flurry of posts on modern fakes, I thought I’d post this one to the list and ask for your help.  I sent a .JPG of the coin to the (very reputable) dealer first, and he felt the coin was likely genuine since the recent forgeries tend to be larger than this coin.  But I told him that, all the same, I’d post to this discussion board for a second opinion, especially since this was my first purchase of uncleaned coins for personal use.  (I had purchased some of FORVM’s uncleaneds for use in a class I taught this semester.)  The coin had no patina.  It had a thin coating of green goo that scraped off with a fingernail.  Underneath, the coin was as shiny as a new penny, and the face on the obverse seemed to have a smudge.  So.  Is this a fake, or a genuine Constantinople Commemorative?  P.S., I’ve never sent an image to the board (indeed, this is my second post ever), so I hope it comes through.


Tacitvs

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2003, 10:57:10 am »
Yours is a fake, no question.  If the dealer has any doubt that it is a fake, send him this way to look at all the examples posted!

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2003, 11:01:11 am »
If you follow one of the links from earlier in this thread you will find an example which is all too similar to your definate fake. with the same TR dot S exe.
Maridvnvm

Offline OWL365

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2003, 07:42:30 pm »
I recently recieved these 3 coins from Ben's $2.00 lot. 1st a Sept Severus , 2nd Justinian II, 3rd a campgate. These coins are pretty much the same color as I received them, and took little time to clean. All 3 coins show some wear and had a bit of the
green ancient coin crud that took a bit of time to remove. When you refer to modern fakes , How modern are we talking about?
The Severus and the Justinian II look pretty close to examples shown here. The campgate portrait is a bit strange would this fit into the uncleaned fake category?see next post for scan of the campgate) It would be a shame if all 3 coins are fakes. They were the best coins in the lot :'(
Mike

Offline OWL365

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2003, 07:43:54 pm »
And the campgate.
Mike

stickman

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2003, 08:41:24 pm »
The Justinian looks similar to one I have that is fake. :(
Does it appear to be made of metal other than bronze, such as copper?
Take a look at mine.....

Offline saholz

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2003, 09:07:16 pm »
I have two of these coins and posted pictures of them in an earlier thread.    (The third is a Severus.  My Severus has a different reverse, but your style has been posted by others)  They are all certainly the same fakes that we've all been getting.  Sorry.   :-[

Stan

Offline Jeff Clark

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2003, 11:06:27 pm »
Here is another one that I haven't seen anywhere yet.  It is the first one that pertained to my area (I was feeling a little left out for a while) so I did buy it on purpose.  It also seems to be one of the only ones that I know for sure never ocurred in nature, so to speak.  It also is heavily clipped with, what, tin snips?  They are pretty rough clippings.  They must have been running out of metal for these things at some point.
Jeff Clark

Offline Springbank

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2003, 10:22:17 pm »
I finally identify a coin, and its a fake.  This did not come from Ben's BTW.  There is another I was wondering about, but it does not scan well.  Looks funny wet, but dries "dusty" looking.
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Offline Springbank

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2003, 10:22:51 pm »
The reverse...
"The gods are on the side of the stronger."

-- Tacitus

benscoins

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2003, 01:46:45 am »
Hi everybody,
I just finished weeding out every stinkin one of the things from what I had on hand.  Out of approx. 5,000 coins on hand, I ended up with 1,500 fakes.  I have confronted my supplier, who of course begged ignorance and innocence.  I can assure you the forgers are running scared and obviously underestimated the ancient coin-buying community.  They will certainly NOT circulate any more of these things.  But the bad news is, they will probably use it as a learning experience, try to figure out what made them so easily detectable, and keep trying to perfect it.  IMO, anyway.  

I'll have scans posted soon, but use this primer as your guide to weeding out the fakes.  And if any of you bought them from me, please return them immediately and I will replace them along with a few bonus coins for the hassle.  I inadvertently sent out a lot of them, but can guarantee that not a single one will be sent out by me again!

Best,
Ben

HOW TO DETECT THE MODERN FAKES

As for detecting the fakes, in the process of culling them all out of my lots I discovered just how obvious they are.  I got more and more embarassed as I went.  There is really no need to try and compare inscriptions/types, because they are VERY easy to spot, even when completely crusted.  You just need to know what to look for.  They can be spotted just by their shape, without even having to look at the inscriptions.  Out of about 5,000 coins on hand that I "disinfected," I ended up with a staggering 1,500 fakes!  Anyone that feels they only found one or two out of a purchase of 20+, PLEASE read the below primer very carefully!  I'll still post scans of every type I found, but here's the skinny on how to spot them.................

The most important thing to realize is that these fakes were CAST, not struck.  They have a UNIFORM THICKNESS from middle to edge (genuine ones tend to slope downwards and thin out towards the edges), and the edge is ROUNDED, THICK and SMOOTH, not jagged, skinny and sharp like genuine coins.  There is NO CHIPPING on the flan - they are SMOOTH, PRISTINE, ROUNDED edges.  That's the biggest giveaway.  Look at the edges to spot them.  They also have a greenish tint to most of them, but NOT ALL of them.  They are a good deal thicker than genuine coins.  And most (but not all) are in the AE3 size range.  Once you have successfully identified a few of them, they practically jump right out at you.  Lay one next to a genuine one and the differences will be very obvious.

I still plan to post comprehensive scans of every fake type I found, but remember that THE SHAPE is the best way to pick them out.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2003, 05:42:34 pm »
I ended up with fifteen fakes out of a hundred in David's lot. Here are the obverses; I've only done minimal cleaning.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2003, 05:43:15 pm »
And the reverses.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:"The Uncleaned Fake" - Examples
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2003, 06:31:03 pm »
Its not a big deal really, one in six. I still have 85 genuine coins. My biggest concern is really to warn him so that he doesn't send out more without realising.
Robert Brenchley

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