Interesting Archaic Silver fractional

[Molinari]

Hey folks,

Never seen one like this before so I decided to bid.  Not sure if it's authentic but I hope so.  I've done some preliminary research and haven't found any matches.  Any information would be very much appreciated.

12mm, approx. 4.5g

Do not yet have coin in hand for better photos.

Thanks!

Nick

[Jeremy W]

My first thought was Gela but the head isn't right.  I'll keep looking.

Thanks,

JW

[archivum]

The tunny fish here with incuse links your coin to the earlier coinage of Cyzicus or Kyzikos, Mysia (see examples on acsearch.info), but I'm not sure your coin is authentic; the style of your man-headed bull suggests Gela or elsewhere in Sicily.

[Molinari]

Thanks for the responses.  I looked at several Sicilian issues but haven't found it yet.  I've also seen early gold issues from Kyzikos with an image of the man-faced bull but haven't found any silver issues similar to this one yet...

There was also a coin I remember (but can't find now) from an auction catalogue that had a man-headed bull left with quadripartite incuse square reverse and that was from the Spain region, but I'm having trouble relocating the reference.

In any event, thanks for the help so far!

Nick

[archivum]

The Spanish coin was from Emporion, but once more, no tunny.

[Molinari]

Hi Archivum,

That's the one I was referring to.  I wonder if it my coin is an unpublished coin of Kyzikos, Mysia?  I agree the obverse has the style of Gela.  An odd coin for sure!

Nick

[Molinari]

Here is an image of the gold stater I referred to earlier.  Perhaps my coin is a forgery imitating this, but in the wrong metal, or perhaps an authentic silver issue with similar design.  You can see the tunny left of the man-headed bull, although somewhat obscured by the edge.

If authentic, I think a Mysia, Kysikos issue is most likely.

Nick




Image from Solon Numismatics

[Molinari]

Just trying to keep this post live as I'm still looking.  The coin is not in Sear, Wildwinds, Coinarchives, SNG Online, CNG Research, acsearch, or AsiaMinorCoins.com. 


Thanks for looking,


Nick

[Akropolis]

Perhaps better and larger pictures would help.
PeteB

[Dino]

Some similar looking coins from Phokaia in Asia Minor as well, but I haven't found a match.

[Molinari]

Thanks, I'll be sure and check out that area as well.  I can't provide better pictures because the coin hasn't arrived yet, but the devices are very clear from these images.

Thanks again,

Nick

[Gabe]

I'd be very interested in hearing the resolution on this. 

I cannot find a silver version of this Kyzikene stater anywhere.

[casata137ec]

Just playing devil's advocate here...but isnt it possible that this is a modern imitation of the gold coin struck in silver?

Chris

[archivum]

I think it is probably a modern confection, but I'm still not sure how to access the cite for the the gold coin itself!

[Dino]

Go here and scroll down:

[Commercial Link Removed by Admin]

Attribution from that site as follows:

Mysia, Kyzikos (C 450-400 BC) El Stater (16.06g.)


Obv: River God Acheluos son of Gaia and Oceanus, tunny behind. Rev. Quadripartite incuse square. Von Fritze V 22, BMC 82.
Ex Gorny 1993. Sharp high relief strike with superb details, well centered on a magnificent oval flan. An important image in the history of religious thought, exceptional and extremely rare, esp in this condition

NGC Graded AU, Strike 4/5, surf 3/5

POR - I assume means Price on Request.  I also assume that it means I can't afford it.

[Dino]

By the way, I'm not sure that I'd quickly jump to a conclusion of modern fake.  There are examples of coins that have similar obverses and reverses that were struck in different sizes and different metals (only a few of which are posted below. 

[Molinari]

I definitely have my suspicions about the coin, based primarily on the style and combination of devices.  But if it is real and I can confirm it, I'd imagine it is exceptionally rare.  I know that there is another, less rare gold issue much like the one above only a smaller denomination, so it wasn't a one-shot-deal using the man-headed bull on the obverse...in fact, I believe I've found four total EL examples from Kyzikos that have the man-headed bull.

If it is a modern fake, I'd be very interested in finding some documented examples as I've never seen one like this.

If anyone has suggestions as to books I should request via ILL please let me know!

Thanks again for all the contributions,

Nick

[newbeonecoinobe]

here is a close one but going the wrong way,   from Phokaia (BC 600-522) EL 1/6 Stater - B16
109 views
ca 625-522 BC. EL Hekte (2.58g). Head of man-headed bull left, seal to right / Quadripartite incuse square. aEF.

http://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=135

Good Luck

[Pscipio]

The coin shown by newbeonecoinobe is of completely different style, of electrum and has the Phokaian seal, not a tunny, so doesn't help with Nick's silver coin.

I don't think style and fabric of Nick's look convincing. Furthermore, no such silver coins are recorded from the early Cyzicus coinage (cf. BMC Mysia p. 20, nos. 16 and 17, and pl. III, 21 for an early silver coin of 14.5 g but with a completely different and very archaic design), and the weight of 4.5 g doesn't seem to fit into the Cyzicene weight standard, which was based upon the Rhodian standard with a weight of 3.7 g for a drachm.

I would thus be very reluctant accepting it as a genuine, but rather suspect a modern forgery.

Lars

[Dino]

I'd love to see bigger, better pics of this along with weight confirmation once the coin is in-hand.

[Molinari]

I'll certainly post additional pictures once the coin arrives.  I agree that the coin doesn't look convincing in terms of the coinage of Kyzikos.  Are there other cities that use the tunny in this way?

Nick

[Molinari]

So, long story short, the dealer decided to refund the majority of my payment because I said the coin seemed to be composed of lead, but I was allowed to keep the coin.  Since he didn't put up much of a fight, I have a feeling most of his coins are fake.  On a somewhat related note, here is an interesting EL coin I saw on V-Auctions that is very similar.

Nick

[Molinari]

Here's the attribution for the EL coin I just posted:

MYSIA, Kyzikos - EL - Hekte 380-360 BC - RRRR

Forepart of man-headed bull with full beard to right, behind, tunny fish)(Quadripartite incuse square. Attractive; complete in details, well struck and wonderfully well centered with fine toning. Extremely rare and undescreibed. One other, somewhat incomplete, exemple sold at Leu, auction 91 2004, lot 152, described; "Unpublished and apparently unique". This peace is by far the more attractiv of the two. The coin has been investigated by CNG and considered being a struck original and the second known.

BMFA–, Hurter & Liewald–, SNG Paris–, v Fritze -

good Very Fine
well centered with fine toning

[Molinari]

An old topic but Dino just sent me this image.  Apparently the style has been documented on coins of Kyzikos and relatively early on:

Asia Minor

Kyzikos, Mysia

Hekte (Electrum, 2.58 g), c. 380-360. Forepart of man-headed bull with full beard to right; behind, tunny fish. Rev. Quadripartite incuse square. BMFA –. Hurter & Liewald –. SNG Paris –. Von Fritze –. Unpublished and apparently unique. Nearly extremely fine.

The coinage of Kyzikos is full of surprises! This unique and unpublished hekte shows us a remarkable late classical head of Achelous, in his usual form as a man-headed bull. He had already appeared at Kyzikos in a more formal manner (Von Fritze 174, SNG Paris 320), but the figure here is much baroque in style, reminiscent of bronzes from Herbessos (as Basel 297) and of late 5th century representations from Gela.

[Molinari]

And here is a lighter (albeit not better) photo of my coin, listed as a "suspected forgery".