Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Poll

Which has the more artistic value and WHY

Justinian I
1 (5.9%)
Constantine IV
1 (5.9%)
Constantine VI/Irene
1 (5.9%)
Leon V
0 (0%)
Romanus I
1 (5.9%)
Basile II class A2
7 (41.2%)
Manuel I
1 (5.9%)
Theodore I
5 (29.4%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value  (Read 6885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« on: January 23, 2004, 06:11:25 am »
The poll is ment as a debate over the artistic qualities of byzantine coinage during its evolution. We will be discussing especially bronze coins for now, except for the last  centuries. I will add some pictures of coins from each century to refresh our memory. Unfortunatelly the pole has only 8 options and the Empire has 1000 years. I will post pictures nevertheless, and you can vote on them; eventually not the pole result is important but the discussion itself. Please note that the pictures I will post are not necessarily the artistic peak of a certain century. You can post your own picture if you feel is more useful in the discussion. Enjoy!  :)
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2004, 06:29:11 am »
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2004, 06:30:55 am »
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2004, 06:35:52 am »
CONSTANTINE VI/IRENE
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2004, 06:38:20 am »
LEON V
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2004, 06:39:52 am »
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2004, 06:42:23 am »
BASILE II
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2004, 06:45:09 am »
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2004, 06:48:07 am »
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2004, 06:49:03 am »
IOAN V (AR)
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2004, 06:52:09 am »
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2004, 12:46:10 am »
This is a very tough question? It really does not have a right answer but I voted .  All of your examples were nice ( Except the John VIII ) Allof those coins have something going for them, as for style it can be as different as comparing a Realistic painting  to a abstract painting.

I picked a favorite style coin.  :-X  
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2004, 05:52:18 am »
I like that portrait of Basil II, but its really hard to judge when its so subjective and I'm not familiar with the coinage so I'm going on a single example of each.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Ecgþeow

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 382
    • my gallery
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2004, 05:28:18 pm »
I, too, voted Basil II, but the first eight all have a similar level of artistic value.

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2004, 01:04:14 am »
Only seven voters, I am really surprised. I am also surprised at the results so far.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2004, 05:25:19 am »
Well Simon there is a definite and unfortunate lower interest on byzantine coins but we have to be patient ;)
    As I said in the beginning the pictures may not be the best ones or even the types itself for a certain century-it's just a starting point.
    I would say that Justinian still has some old traditional elements, like the legend for example and I couldn't say it's a true byzantine coin. For me a byzantine coin has a legend in greek and must have some religious symbols, so i would say that any type after the iconoclasm can be called a genuine byzantine type. Nevertheless in style you can see clear differences of coins minted in Sicily and those in Constantinople, let's say. I posted on purpose a Leon V from Sicily to see the difference. Also the later types have a venetian influence, the italian themselves being influenced by byzantine coinage at first.
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

the_Apostate

  • Guest
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2004, 05:12:49 am »
Finally a poll on artistic merit -  :D After all that's what's interesting about coins. Byz coins appeal less to me than Greek and Roman coins not because I don't like the Byz style* (I've seen and been enchanted by the dome in Monreale and by the Kariye Cami) but because I think the gap between the truly accomplished art and numismatic art widened considerably during the Middle Ages though of course it did so far more in the West.

Anyway I'm going to get some Byzantine coins in times to come and I voted Theodore I. That one comes closest to what the Byzantines could do in other fields of art.

*The Byz style even spread to Sweden. We've got one tiny church with Byz wall paintings though it's not well known. This is most likely the North-Western limit  of Byzantine art.

the_Apostate

  • Guest
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2004, 05:19:15 am »
Well Simon there is a definite and unfortunate lower interest on byzantine coins but we have to be patient ;)

Be happy! This means they're cheaper than they should be -  ;)

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2004, 06:45:32 am »
      Of course you won't find any EID MAR historical type  in byzantine coinage-the reverses are less spectacular. The only thing you can wish concerning "big M's" or "big K's" is to be well centered and very well preserved; possibly a scarce regnal year, but few people know about that.
      The problem with byzantine bronze is the high circulation and therefore the very few specimens well preserved. I collect especially Maurice Tiberius and last year I got to buy an uncirculated follis which made me realize I new almost nothing about details on VIth century bronze-it had some features I never knew existed on this type. If I look on ebay I see 75% Fine quality byzantine bronze, which usually are qualified as VF by the buyers, not without reason because good byzantines are hard to find. I probably see 1/100 anonymous folles with what seems a full detail on obverse Christ. I have seen a lot of fake sestertii on eBay. How many byzantine bronze fakes have you people ever seen ???
       And now comes the silver problem. Tones of denarii. I am curious-did anyone see a VIth century siliqua on eBay or other auction houses? I can hardly get my hands on a VIIc Heraclius milliarension or a Ioan Tzimiskes later issue. Of course gold is more common and for 200$ you can get a common solidus. Of course I love the prices on byzantine bronze on eBay and I love when I get rare types from sellers that mix up emperors and mints and denommination. Two years ago I bought a rare Maurice decanummium in consular robe for 1.5$ from an auction title "Biblical Coin" :D. This is my latest addition for 20$ and it looks much much better than the photo.
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2004, 07:39:34 am »
Your right Apostate but it is a double edged sword. Yes they are cheaper but their is a lot more to disscuss about them but less people to disscuss them.  :-\ People collect ancients for diffrent reasons but mostly looks and known history, Byzantine Coins are the last great frontier for collectors, especially the later time periods, you can still as a collector make finds that no one has found before, it was only in the 80's when Constantine XI coins were found, the last Emperor of the empire. Found in a dealers tray at a coin show.

The last 400 hundred years of the empire are still being put togethor for coins that makes it interesting but very difficult to find reffrences and none are complete. Another agravation are finding the coins from dealers but only to find them misatributed, yes I have also got some great deals this way but more disapointment.

Many times I have to buy bulk lots just to get one coin I see in the lot, I resell the others on Ebay. I have written over a dozen dealers with want lists only never to receive any reply. This is from the largest to middle sized companies dealing in ancients and Byzantine.

As for looks, I got into Byzantine coins when I started selling abstract art, I personally do not believe Byz coin to be of less artistic quality than Roman but just a diffrent abstract style.

So these are the complaints of someone who is just trying to fill in the blanks for an exciting time period that gets no respect. Forgive my rant ;)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline whitetd49

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1540
  • FEL TEMP REPARATIO
    • Coins of the Severan Dynasty at Stobi
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2004, 08:03:50 am »
I have read and enjoyed all the recent discussion of Byz coins and art.  However, I cannot contribute to the discussion because I know nothing!  My few Byz coins gleaned from uncleaned lots are largely unattributed - not because I'm disinterested.  So please don't get discouraged, as long as these threads persist, you will probably drag the ignorant (like me) into a more informed appreciation of these coins.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10349

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2004, 08:19:23 am »
The first step is to put on this board all the byzantine unattributed coins you want to find information on, and any other byzantine coin that seems interesting to you from ebay or any other place on the web, that you want to know more about.
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline LordBest

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2045
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2004, 10:53:22 am »
Quote
Of course you won't find any EID MAR historical type  in byzantine coinage
No, you getthe Stavrata of Constantine XI mitned during the diege of Constantinople in 1453, a damn site more interesting and historical than a ruddy Eid Mar. ;) the final collapse of the Roman empire vs the assasination of a Git. ::)
                                        LordBest. 8)

the_Apostate

  • Guest
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2004, 12:05:57 pm »
Quote
Of course you won't find any EID MAR historical type  in byzantine coinage
No, you getthe Stavrata of Constantine XI mitned during the diege of Constantinople in 1453...

...and besides these are damn cheap compared to Ides of March denarii  :D

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2004, 02:22:08 pm »
Yes, but how many people have heard about Julius Caesar and how many about Constantin XI ??? For me the last christian coins minted in Constantinople during the ottoman siege, struck to pay the last men fighting for the survival of a 1000 years Christian empire has more artistic value  than any perfect, realistic, rare and FDC Eid Mar. :-\
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:Byzantine coins over the centuries-artistic value
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2004, 08:02:07 pm »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity