Two tough 5th Cent. AE4s

[FORVM AUCTIONS]

Hi folks,
Any ideeas on these two ? I might be too tired at this hour to properly use RIC X, but anyway:

First one: obverse legend seems to clearly read NO(R?) at 11:00, but style too late for Honorius.  Reverse VICTOR..., Rome mint considering the T left and "P" in ex.


Second:  rev legend appears to read a full VICTORIA in the left part with no break, while RIC X notes breaks for all types.   


Thanks for any hints !

[Carolus Magnus]

Could the top one be a barb?..............CT

[black-prophet]

Funny I was thinking the bottom coin was barbaric.At first glance I felt the 1st coin was Johannes at least in style.The legends on coins of Johannes and others during this time are notorius for their crudeness so some deviation can be expected.But then the portrait was bugging me because even in some of the poorest examples Johannes is still portrayed with a beard.So I'll offer one more possibility however remote, that it was struck in the name of Honorius by say Gaiseric,the king of the vandals.The example is from an auction last March this is the description.

Pseudo-imperiale Prägung im Namen des Honorius.
AE (0,98 g.), wahrscheinlich 395 - 455 n. Chr. unter Geiserich. Mzst. Karthago? Vs.: [HONORIV]S P F AVG, drapierte Büste mit Diadem n. r. Rs.: Viktoria mit Kranz u. Palmzweig n. l., l. im Feld S. W. Wroth, Vandals, Ostrogoths and Lombards (1911) S. 18 Nr. 6. Grüne Patina, ss

So the choices I believe are

1.It is Johannes
2.It is Honorius
3.It is Honorius struck by the Vandals in official capacity
4.It is Honorius struck by the Vandals in an unofficial capacity
5.It is completely Barbaric

I love these 5th century lumps.

[FORVM AUCTIONS]

I find them fascinating myself. Must be the way some of us perceive that era, a strange mix of antiquity and medieval...
Enough day dreaming, well:

If #2 Iohannes; his legends are:
D N IOHAN-
D N IOHANN-
The coin seems to end [...] NOR-, NOH-, NON-     A bit hard to read Johannes on it !  He has a visible beard most times as well (looks a bit like Eugenius)

The most common of the era is Valentinian III. Again not exactly a match D N PLA VALENTI(NIANVS)

I think we are only left with: Gratia Honoria D N IVST GRAT HONORIA  (but the coin would need a female bust) and
Majorian:  D N IVLIVS MAIORIANVS    Note that the -NOR reading can easily be split into -AIOR and we have a match. However, field officinas are only noted for the Joh/V3 group and so we end up going in circles.


#1 does look like a match! nice find, will check again in RIC then Wroth if in our library.   

[*Alex]

If #2 Iohannes; his legends are:
D N IOHAN-
D N IOHANN-
The coin seems to end [...] NOR-, NOH-, NON-     A bit hard to read Johannes on it !  He has a visible beard most times as well (looks a bit like Eugenius)

I can see NOR on the first coin and I am pretty sure that it is Honorius (the VS PF AVG is also visible. I believe it is probably a reasonably accomplished "barb",  the only other barbs I have seen of this type are not as close to the official issues as yours but then again your coin appears at first glance to have the SALVS REIPVBLICAE type coupled with the VICTORIA AVGG legend. See "SALVS" coin below. The reverse of your coin is not wholly clear however, and it is possible that the "blob" to the right of Victory is not a captive being dragged but an extension of Victory's wing, making the coin simply a barbaric copy of the Victory advancing left type.

I cannot see "NOR" on #2 which looks completely barbaric to me.

Alex.

[Kelly]

Hello All,
I have a Valentinian III which is very close to the second coin.

This is how I have attributed my:

424-450 AD. 12 mm and 1.2 grams. Obv: DN VALENTINIANVS PF AVG, pearl diadem, draped, cuirassed. Rev: VICTOR-IA AVGG, Victory advancing left dragging captive and holding trophy over right shoulder. S in left field.  Ex: RM, Rome. RIC X, 2133 var. R2.

Ya gotta love em!
Regards,
Kelly

[FORVM AUCTIONS]

Kelly, any chance you could post a picture of your coin?  Thanks.

[pippo72]

Hallo everyone
I study this kind of coins and I'm quite sure that the first AE4 is a victoria augg from Honorius (...Nor... on bverse legend), a very late Honorius issue (after 410) from Rome mint. It is not a barbaric imitation.

Second one hasn't a clear legend. I don't think it is Iohannes (only my sensation). It could be another Victoria Augg from Honorius or even a rare Theodosius II issue from the mint of Rome.

[Kelly]

Alexandru,
Here is the image.  It is so ugly, it is cute.
Kelly

[EX.NVMMIS]

Hi Alexandru!

I actually have the first coin on my colection, a beutifull and later issue of Honorius.

but.. can you identify the second coin? Do you have it in your hands yet?

Thanks!

[rasiel]

top one is honorius, bottom is likely theo 2

ras

[EX.NVMMIS]

Gracias Ras! Soy Ricardo (te compre el Mayoriano hace unos dias)