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Author Topic: Isegrim offline  (Read 9820 times)

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Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2021, 10:18:31 am »
... I have received the raw data and converted it to an xls file, ...
These are great news  +++.

... In addition I would change (Anglicise) emperor/empresses names from the way they were in Isegrim ...
I don't mind how things are written, as long as they are written always the same way. This has been one of the strengths of Isegrim and should be preserved.

... It'll be a hell of a job and I doubt whether I would be able to add all the new variations which are e.g. listed here on forum ...
This is an extra, I already would be happy if we would get the content of the original Isegrim back again.

Thanks a lot for your effort!!!

Regards

Altamura


Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2021, 08:39:00 pm »
Ah, Dane to the rescue, assuming that Dusseldorf signs on, and lets this go forward as hoped! Your retooling-plan sounds great, and as for refinements, they’ll happen eventually, or not, perhaps with smart streamlining-assistance from Ed. A good headnote on search-terms should do it!
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2021, 05:18:39 pm »
Progress report: 8 April.
As mentioned further above, I have split the files into three sheets/pages of the xls file and am currently working on the "AE AD" sheet. There are a some errors in Isegrim which I have noticed in the past (e.g. mixing up the obverse and reverse, peculiar names for objects e.g. "WEIRS 2", so these are being corrected or clarified as I go through the list.

Some of the original VT types are terribly obscure, e.g.
PERSONS 4 / WOMAN STANDING HR(1) / DEMETER(1) <?> / ALTAR / THEREABOVE / COLUMN / WITH / FIGURE STANDING HL(2) / APOLLO(2) / THEREUNDER / ANIMAL <L> / BULL / THEREBEHIND / MAN STANDING HL / EMPEROR(3) / MAN STANDING HR(4) / EMPEROR(4) / MAN STANDING HL(5) / PERSEUS(5)
which some of you may recognise, but people who have never used Isegrim but will be using the xls list will be confused. This, for example has been changed (partly corrected) to
in Column M: PERSONS 4 WOMAN MAN MAN MAN   
In Column N: WOMAN DEMETER(1) STANDING HR BEFORE  ALTAR SURMOUNTED BY COLUMN OF APOLLO (2) STANDING HL, BULL BELOW, UPPER BODIES OF FIGURES 2 (EMPEROR HL AND EMPRESS HR) BEHIND THE ALTAR, MAN PERSEUS (3) STANDING HL TO RIGHT
There are also a lot of German terms which were not translated for the original English version of Isegrim, and I am checking some works for better descriptions than those in Isegrim (e.g. HEAD MAN HR, with no other details as to who it is). Not all works cited have better descriptions, but some do, which are being added.

The AE AD sheet has just over 35,600 lines and I am currently on line 11,250.
As soon as this sheet is done, and added some info/conventions I'll put the entire xls online (with Sheets 2 and 3 not yet reworked) and with time I will add some of the coins in the Isegrim additions thread mentioned above as well as otherwise unpublished types in GRPC Lydia.

Offline clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 05:24:51 am »
My hat off to Dane !
That sounds to be almost a Sisyphean task to cope with.

Clueless

Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 01:14:10 pm »
We're all grateful for all your hard work!
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline esnible

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2021, 10:32:50 pm »
ISEGRIM, and most of the other coin data bases, give results as lists of example coins.  The ANS database is technically capable of doing more, with SPARQL queries, but that functionality is not exposed to the world.

I'd like to encourage developers and data scientists to create tools that can be combined with other tools.  Let me give an example.  I often see people uploading a poor quality coin and asking where it is from.  Using the ISEGRIM data, I did a query for coins with obverse of an emperor facing right, reverse temple.  Then I summarized the results, and fed them into Excel.

This pie represents emperor/temple coin types of Asia Minor:


Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2021, 06:44:47 pm »
The entries for sheet 1 (Roman times AE), with 35,601 lines is basically done, and I am about to change the peculiar way that Isegrim required certain Greek letters to be entered.
So
T' will be Q (for Theta)
C' will be X
P' will be F

but I am unsure how to convert P'' (for Psi) AND S' (for digamma).
Any suggestions ?

Also, I will not be changing the S (as in SEBASTOY, for example) to C because many early provincials use Sigma and I don't have the time to check them, so the S will remain as S.



Offline esnible

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2021, 08:26:15 pm »
The entries for sheet 1 (Roman times AE), with 35,601 lines is basically done, and I am about to change the peculiar way that Isegrim required certain Greek letters to be entered.
So
T' will be Q (for Theta)
C' will be X
P' will be F

but I am unsure how to convert P'' (for Psi) AND S' (for digamma).
Any suggestions ?

My recommendation is to have one column for the original, encoded ISEGRIM and one column for true Unicode uppercase Greek.

When I did isegrim.mybluemix.com, I found that it was really nice having true Greek characters that I could paste into web sites and documents.  Yet it was also nice having the Latin characters for searching.

Here are the multi-character sequences used

"T'": "\u03B8",  // Used in AR PA GERMANIKOPOLIS ESTIA T'EWN ET SDI
"S'": "\u03DA", // Stigma, used in AYT KAIS NER TRAIANOS SEB GERM DAR TO S'I
"P''": "\u03A8", // Psi, used in KELENDERITWN YP''
"P'": "\u03A6", // Phi, Used in SMYRNAIWN OMONOIA P'ILADELP'EWN EP PWLLIANOY
"C'": "\u03A7", // Chi; Used in ANTIOC'EWN MENEKLHS
"Y'": "\u03A5", // Upsilon, // Used in IEROS AGWN PY'TIA NIKAIEWN
"X'": "\u03A7", // Chi; Used in ERY X'ARMHS


I am happy to supply a Javascript program to convert ISEGRIM's encoding to actual Greek.

The original ISEGRIM encoding also had German words in angle brackets in the inscriptions.  Some I was able to figure out, some I could not.  isegrim.mybluemix.com translated those for English speakers like this:

"<PA>": "<PA>", // Example "ZEP'YRIWTWN <PA>"
"<KOR>": "<KOR>", // Example "TIMOLWBOY <KOR>"
"<COR>": "<COR>", // Example "AYT K POY LIK GALLIHNOS <COR>"
"<LATEIN>": "<Latin>", // Used in "APA MANTIT'EOS MANTIT'EOY / C FAN PONT PR <LATEIN>"
"<RETRO>": "<Retrograde>", // Used in "APA MANTIT'EOS MANTIT'EOY / C FAN PONT PR <LATEIN>"
"<MONOGRAMM,": "<Monogram,", // Used in "P'AYSTOY <MONOGRAMM,T>"
"<VERW>": "<VERW>", // Used in M IOYLION P'ILIPPOS KA <VERW>
"<NICHT ANGEGEBEN>": "<Not Specified>", // Example "KYZIKHNWN NEOKORWN <NICHT ANGEGEBEN>"
"<RETOUCHIERUNG>": "<Retouched>", // Example "ANAZ ENDOX MHT B G ET T'MS <RETOUCHIERUNG>""  Re-engraved?
"<BEARBEITET ZU ": "<Edited to ", // Example "EPI MENANDROY .. SYNAEITWN <BEARBEITET ZU SYDHTWN>""
"<UNLESBAR>": "<Unreadable>", // Example "? <UNLESBAR>"
"<UNLESERLICH>": "<Illegible>", // Example ".. <UNLESERLICH>"

One problem non-Germans have is that we can't look up abbreviations in dictionaries.  If you know what PA, or VERW means, let me know!

Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2021, 07:55:45 am »
<VERW> is very likely "verwaist" = very worn or illegible. It also means "orphaned" but in the coin sense it usually means it is so pitted or worn that it is illegible

The <PA> for the Zephyrion coin (the only instance of <PA>) is simply an interpretation of the fieldmark which is actually a Pi and a PA monogram, although the P (reversed) of the monogram is very small at the top left of the A. Some of the references cited just give a Pi and an A.

I would simply not have the time to add 56,600+ legends in Greek, Ed. As you can see, just the basic sheet 1 has taken me 18 days. I think I will change S' to S but add a note in column X that it is a digamma.
As for P'' (Psi), the only way I can think of is to change it to [PS] in square brackets and add the information to the Info sheet.

I haven't added done the bibliography yet, I am still tweaking Sheet 1.

Offline esnible

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2021, 09:46:36 am »
I would simply not have the time to add 56,600+ legends in Greek, Ed.

Maybe there is some way we could pool our efforts?

I could probably write a program to generate converted columns according to your rules.

It is also possible, I suspect, to write an Excel formula to do a conversion.  The idea would be to leave the original data, but create a column that is just 56k identical formulas under-the-covers.

Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2021, 01:16:34 pm »
Great to know of such progress! If you wish to discard Isegrim's quirky transcriptions, I'm sure you would like to avoid other quirky transcriptions instead; nothing quirky however about W for obsolete S' (digamma), since basically that's how it sounded. If we're talking about the numeral usage of S', you could follow "W" with "(numeral 6)." An inelegant but functional solution for Psi is to key it "Ps."
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2021, 01:34:55 pm »
The digamma in Isegrim is, amongst others, the value mark for 6 Assaria, as well as e.g. the consular year 6 on a Caesarea, Cappadocia Drachm of Trajan. The digamma does resemble an S, so using a W (=Upper case Omega) would be confusing.
Also, not everyone who will be using the list will know that the number 6 was often represented by a digamma. so using a 6 would be equally confusing.



Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2021, 02:49:42 pm »
Point taken. For such specialized use maybe what is required is a readily gettable non-Greek symbol of some sort, say @ or $ or #. Of course Q and J have their own problems.
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline esnible

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2021, 05:55:40 pm »
Excel has functions.  For example, it can replace P' with ϕ using

=SUBSTITUTE(B3, "P'", "ϕ")

(assume B3 is the column/cell with a Greek inscription)

You can put the formula into a single cell, and copy it to an entire column.  Poof!  Instantly the whole column has no P'.

To replace all of the ISEGRIM multi-character letters, we must combine SUBSTITUTE() by nesting:

=SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(B3, "P''", "Ψ"), "P'", "ϕ"), "T'", "θ"), "S'", "Ϛ"), "Y'", "Υ"), "X'", "Χ")

We can also replace other letters for pretty-printing.  For example, we can nest in a replacement for D to Δ

=SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(=SUBSTITUTE(B3, "D", "Δ"), "P''", "Ψ"), "P'", "ϕ"), "T'", "θ"), "S'", "Ϛ"), "Y'", "Υ"), "X'", "Χ")

Perhaps you don't want Greek letters.  You can use the same scheme but replace the Greek letters with your favorite Latin substitutes such as Q.

Perhaps you don't want formulas in your spreadsheet.  There is a way around this.  The idea is to customize the spreadsheet as little as possible, so that if the ISEGRIM people release a new dump we can easily bring it in.

To create the user-friendly version, load the vanilla version.  Create a new pair of columns, one for obverse inscription, one for reverse, using these formulas.  Then, copy the new columns and "Paste->Special (Values)" the new columns over the original columns.  Then delete the formula columns.

Use the power of Excel to save your time and eyesight.

Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2021, 09:06:34 pm »
Point taken. For such specialized use maybe what is required is a readily gettable non-Greek symbol of some sort, say @ or $ or #.

That it a brilliant idea !
I am just adding the coins from the second page of the Isegrim Additions page, mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.

One thing I have also noticed - there must be at least two versions of RecGen. I have the printed book (George Olms co. reprint from 1976), plus the Paris versions with hundreds of hand-written additions and corrections, so I will check a few of those to see whether they are in Isegrim.

Offline clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2021, 08:17:24 am »
Yes, there are 2 editions, the earlier edition ( the Paris copy with handwritten notes ) and was it a 1921 or 1926 printed edition. Links to this latter edition are found on the forum, too.

Dane, you have been able to very quickly complete things that far, outstanding !

There's a silver lining to all this, too. When the excel-sheet(s) have been posted, people will of course download copies, this will ensure that the data will not be lost if something happens to Dane's page.

Clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2021, 12:37:42 pm »
>
Quote
this will ensure that the data will not be lost if something happens to Dane's page.

I hope you touched something made of wood when you wrote that, to appease the gods !



Offline clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2021, 03:27:33 pm »
Well, I sacrificed a nice beer to the gods, ie put it behind my belt ;)

I did check out RecGen, the latter edition is printed 1925, the Paris copy with the handwritten notes is printed 1904.

Clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2021, 08:47:14 pm »
Sheet 1 is more or less finished. All the vars from the above-mentioned pages here on Forum have been added.
All the vars from a couple of cities (small ones such as Daldis, Tomaris) from my GRPC Lydia have been added.

I wanted to run through some pages of wildwinds looking for unpublished types, but I need to catch up on a LOT of other stuff first (over 120 emails waiting for replies, 30+ coins sent by Skype..)

Please note that Sheet 2 (pre-Roman AE) and Sheet 3 (AV, AR) are still quite "raw" and need to be sorted out and cleaned up.

If anyone wants to try out the list so far, it can be found here:
https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls

Please don't send me additions to the list, add them to the appropriate Isegrim extensions page here on Forum.

For those of you who have never used Excel or the spreadsheet program (free) from LibreOffice, here are a few tips:
Click on the "down" arrow next to the appropriate column name at the top of the list.
Use "Contains" and enter what you are looking for. You can use something similar to wildcards, e.g. EP*S*IANOY*ARX will shorten the column to everything containing that (in that order) so you would see entries with EPI STR, EP STRA.. etc.
Do the same with the other columns.
Because some of the deities on the reverse are unsure, some Isegrim entries are given as TYCHE <DEMETER> or TYCHE OR DEMETER or TYCHE (1) , so use the "Contains" option for the name of the deity as well.

As I say, it isn't polished yet, so do what you can with it.


Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2021, 10:37:01 pm »
Marvellous, Dane; Isegrim rides again!
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2021, 12:40:43 pm »
 +++

Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2021, 04:39:36 am »
I used the Excel file during the last days and it works really good  +++. Thanks a lot!  :)

Regards

Altamura


Offline clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2021, 03:05:11 pm »
Having used the excel file, it works great. In fact I find it a lot easier to use compared to ol´ Isegrim and you get a better view of the results you are looking for.

Great job, Dane !

Clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2021, 04:33:02 pm »
Sheet 1 is more or less finished. All the vars from the above-mentioned pages here on Forum have been added.
All the vars from a couple of cities (small ones such as Daldis, Tomaris) from my GRPC Lydia have been added.

I wanted to run through some pages of wildwinds looking for unpublished types, but I need to catch up on a LOT of other stuff first (over 120 emails waiting for replies, 30+ coins sent by Skype..)

Please note that Sheet 2 (pre-Roman AE) and Sheet 3 (AV, AR) are still quite "raw" and need to be sorted out and cleaned up.

If anyone wants to try out the list so far, it can be found here:
https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls

Please don't send me additions to the list, add them to the appropriate Isegrim extensions page here on Forum.

For those of you who have never used Excel or the spreadsheet program (free) from LibreOffice, here are a few tips:
Click on the "down" arrow next to the appropriate column name at the top of the list.
Use "Contains" and enter what you are looking for. You can use something similar to wildcards, e.g. EP*S*IANOY*ARX will shorten the column to everything containing that (in that order) so you would see entries with EPI STR, EP STRA.. etc.
Do the same with the other columns.
Because some of the deities on the reverse are unsure, some Isegrim entries are given as TYCHE <DEMETER> or TYCHE OR DEMETER or TYCHE (1) , so use the "Contains" option for the name of the deity as well.

As I say, it isn't polished yet, so do what you can with it.



Great work Dane, thank you very much!
Perikles
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Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2021, 10:28:19 pm »
Now that's just spectacular. Thank you, Dane.
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

 

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