Varus and the massacre of Kalkriese

[Jochen]

Hi to all interested in history!

Yesterday I got an article in the German weekly magazine 'Der Spiegel' about new results in searching for the location of the famous battle of Varus 9AD. As the correct place there is found Kalkriese. There was a thread about this on this forum some times before. One of the main reasons to choose Kalkriese as location for the battle of Varus is the pattern distribution of the mint years of the founded coins:
1. There were the famous coins with Varus counterstrucks from AD7-9.
2. But the 'Altar II' serie from Augustus As's minted in Lugdunum since 9AD were never found there.
So the conclusion was: The battle of Kalkriese was in 9AD and therefore this must be the battle of Varus!

Now there comes a bit sceptics:

Prof. Reinhard Wolters in 'Hermeneutik des Hinterhalts. Die antiken Berichte zur Varuskatastrophe und der Fundplatz von Kalkriese, in: Klio 85, 2003, S.131-170'.
He proves that these As's from the 'Altar II' serie, i.e. RIC#233 to #245, are not minted beginning in 9AD but beginning first in 12AD or 14AD and come into circulation only with delay. So the most important reason to take 9AD for the battle of Kalkriese is dropped. Kalkriese could take place several years later.

There was a massacre, but it is not yet proved that this was the massacre of the battle of Varus 9AD!

And it is not so that the Roman army retired after 9AD. The big battles started after 9AD when Germanicus went over the Rhine and to the river Elbe and until 16AD there were many battles and massacres in Germania. Kalkriese can be a location of one of these!

Regards,
Jochen

[David Atherton]

It's a shame to see that this very important battle's location maybe lost to the sands of time once again.

I've read many books on the subject and it seems that every so often a new spot for the battle is found, later to be disproved.

It's probably the single most important event which shaped Europe in the coming centuries. If the Romans had conquered Germania, how different history would have been.

[the_Apostate]

I guess that it'll be easy to prove that the real battlefield of 9 AD has been found whenever it will be found. After all there should lie buried the remains of three chopped up legions and that's no small matter.

Cheers through the ages Hermann! You really gave Auggie some sleepless nights.

[Windchild]

Well it is the same for Alesia the famous place were Julius Caesar beat the whole forces of united Gauls...

There are still some doubt on the real location... The official site is Alise-Sainte-Reine in Burgundy but no more than 30 other places are claiming for the title! Some of them with very strong evidences...

[rick fox]

'The three legions who were massacred in the forest by Arminius!' Helveticus raged. 'There was a fight - dear gods, there was - but there are no bodies because Germanicus came afterwards and buried them.'
He held up his find. It was a silver coin. It carried the special mint mark which P. Quinctilius Varus had used on his soldier's pay.
Not many of those ever circulated in Rome." - 12 Caesars

The decisive battle was fought over three days in Teutoburg Forest, a mountain range in the north-west of Germany (now approximately 70 miles [115km] across from Osnabrück to Padoborn). The precise location of Varus' final stand is believed to be at Kalkriese (near Osnabrück), where in the mid 1980s a British soldier discovered large numbers of bronze coins and lead slingshot "bullets". Further archaeological excavations have revealed fragments of armour, numerous coins which all pre-date AD 9 and are stamped "VAR" (for "VARUS") as the issuer, and even the face mask from a legionary helmet. Over 3000 items were discovered, along with (even more gruesomely) human remains, which supports the theory that Kalkriese is the spot of the massacre.

[Jochen]

Hi silver collector!

You are right! There was a great battle at Kalkriese. The many founds proof that. But was this the battle of Varus? The numismatist Reinhard Wolters has shown, that one of the arguments for dating this battle to AD9, the missing coins of Augustus' altar serie II, no longer is valid! The consequence of this discovery is that Kalkriese may be the place of the Battle of Varus, but it is no must!

Regards,
Jochen

[rick fox]

It is odd that history mostly remembers the loss of the legions.  However it should be remembered that at least 10000 women and children were slaughtered after the battle.  

[Aulus]

Well, just having read Peter Wells' book, The Battle That  Stopped Rome and other evidence on this (Mommsen pegged this as the site over a century ago), it seems pretty clear that Kalkriese was the site of the Varus disaster.

[Roma_Orbis]

There is an interesting contribution in German about the topic, a book being which disagrees with the Kalkriese site being the place of the Teutoburg battle.

The seller once wrote me (I was actually selling some Roman military hanger in eBay, referencing an object found in Kalkriese) in German, stating that the VAR countermark had nothing to do with VARUS but was rather the initials for "VNCIA AUREI REPONERE" :

"Richtig, bei Kalkriese wurden Münzen mit Gegenstempel VAR gefunden!
Doch dieser Stempel hat mit Varus nichts zu tun, denn er wurde schon im
Römischen Reich verwendet als Varus noch nicht geboren war.
Allein aus Germanien sind von dem Gegenstempel VAR 13 verschiedene
Typen von Stempel bekannt.
Der Gegenstempel VAR auf Münzen die das römische Heer ausgab bedeutet:
VAR=VNCIA AUREI REPONERE=Zwölftel eines Aureus zurückgeben.
Das heißt, für diese Münze die wegen Münzmangels im Heer mit einem
Gegenstempel wertiger gemacht wurde, tauschte das Heer später, wenn wieder
genug Münzen vorhanden waren, den Wert einer Unze eines Aureus um.
Das bedeutet, VNCIA=UNZE=Zwölftel waren in diesem Fall 2 Silberdenare.
1 Aureus=25 Denare, es wurden für 12 mit VAR gegengestempelte Münzen nur 24
Denare an die Soldaten gezahlt, der übrigbleibende 1 Denar pro Aureus
war Provision und Münzwertausgleich für den Geldumtausch den das Heer
vornahm, beises zusammen machte 4% eines Aureus aus.

Sehr geehrter Herr Jérôme, aus diesen Ausführungen, die einer Arbeit von
F.H. Rainer Friebe entlehnt sind, recht deutlich entnehmen, daß der Gegenstempel VAR nichts mit Varus zu tun hat.
Leute wie Frank Berger und Georgia Franzius, die mit anderen zusammen bisher
der Wissenschaft und der Öffentlichkeit ein Varusschlachtfeld Kalkriese
eingeredet haben, waren sehr interessiert für Münzen mit Gegenstempel -das
gilt für alle Gegenstempel die man in Kalkriese vorfindet- keine
wissenschaftlich korrekte Untersuchung und Betrachtung anzustellen, sondern
die gesamten Funde in Kalkriese auf Varus zu konfektionieren.
Solch schlechte Arbeit, ich sage Schwindel, scheint sich auszuzahlen, denn
immerhin gab es für einige Kalkrieseleute schon den Titel Professor.
Womöglich war das auch das Ziel mit dem man die Konstruktion
Varusschlachtfeld in Angriff nahm."

Jérôme
 

[Robert_Brenchley]

Anyone able to translate?

[Jochen]

I will try to translate:

Right, at Kalkriese were found coins with the countermark VAR! But this countermark has nothing to do with VARUS, because it already was used in the Roman Empire at a time when VARUS not yet was born.
Sole from Germany for this countermark VAR 13 different types of dies are known.
The countermark VAR on coins issued by the Roman army means: VAR = VNCIA AVREI REPONERE = returning 1 twelfth of an Aureus. This means, this coin, which was made more valuable by this countermark due to coin shortage in the army, later when there were enough coins again, the army changed into an uncia of an Aureus.
That means: VNCIA = one twelfth in this case were 2 silver denarii. 1 Aureus = 25 denarii, for 12 with VAR countermarked coins only 24 denarii were payed to the soldiers, the missing 1 denarius per Aureus was commission and fee for the money exchange which handled the army, both together were 4% of an Aureus.

Dear Mr.Jerome, from these remarks, which were taken from a work of F.H.Rainer Friebe, you clearly can see, that the countermark VAR nothing has to do with VARUS. People like Frank Berger and Georgia Franzius, who together with others have talked science and the public into believing a VARUS battlefield Kalkriese, were strongly interested to do no scientific correct investigation and examination in coins with countermarks, that is valid for all countermarks you can find at Kalkriese, but to make all the findings at Kalkriese suitable to VARUS.
Such bad work, I say bogus, seems to make profit, for at least some of the Kalkriese people got the title Professor. Possibly this was the objective for which they started the construction 'battefield of VARUS' .

Comment of Jochen: Very interesting information! And shows how emotionally the discussion on Kalkriese is kept up to now.

Regards,
Jochen  

[Jochen]

Hi!

For more information about the countermark VAR and wether this stands for VARVS see
http://www.romancoins.info/CMK-Varus-Debate.html

That VAR should be the abbreviation of VNCIA AVREI REPONERE I haven't found yet! On his website Rainer Friebe writes that he has this information from American friends. Look at
http://forum.webmart.de/wmforum.cfm?id=1902785&d=30
This is a website about the battle of Varus, mostly critically to the Kalkriese hypothesis (in German).

Regards,
Jochen

[Jochen]

Hi to all interested in the Varus battle!

Here I have links were you can see some of the coins, found at Kalkriese, the assumed locality of the Varus battle:

http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/t_kalkriese.htm
in English, follow the hints in the text
http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de/projekt/frame7b.htm
in German

Regards,
Jochen

[Britannicus]

Dear Mr.Jerome, from these remarks, which were taken from a work of F.H.Rainer Friebe, you clearly can see, that the countermark VAR nothing has to do with VARUS. People like Frank Berger and Georgia Franzius, who together with others have talked science and the public into believing a VARUS battlefield Kalkriese, were strongly interested to do no scientific correct investigation and examination in coins with countermarks, that is valid for all countermarks you can find at Kalkriese, but to make all the findings at Kalkriese suitable to VARUS.
Such bad work, I say bogus, seems to make profit, for at least some of the Kalkriese people got the title Professor. Possibly this was the objective for which they started the construction 'battefield of VARUS' .
Comment of Jochen: Very interesting information! And shows how emotionally the discussion on Kalkriese is kept up to now.

Jochen is quite right, the Kalkriese discussion has got rather out of hand in Germany, with a lot of dirt being flung around, as in the example that he quotes.
But I must speak up for Dr. Frank Berger, whom I've known for twenty years. Frank's integrity is absolutely beyond question. Although his original doctoral research, many, many years ago, was on coin finds (especially those in Germany and Scandinavia), the focus was on such questions as trade beyond the frontiers of the Empire, the use of bullion payments by the Romans to "appease" the barbarians (and how Septimius Severus adopted a new policy, with far-reaching results), and unglamorous matters like that. Germans are ridiculously uptight about academic titles - "Herr Professor this, Frau Doktor that" - but Frank didn't launch a high-profile university career on the back of the Kalkriese controversy. He's a museum curator, who ran the Coin Cabinet in Hannover and then transferred to a similar job in Frankfurt. He does teach a few university classes, he publishes very widely (i.e. he's not what the Germans call a "subject idiot"), he's a numismatist body and soul, and he's a charming, extroverted, fun person - and these are all things that can make you unpopular in German academic circles (which tells you much more about Germany than about Frank).  
A few years back I had a guided tour of the Kalkriese site with Frank. As we clambered from ditch to ditch (!), he described in great detail the coin finds and what they could tell us.
I'm not saying that the Kalkriese debate has been decided, just that the way it's being carried on at the moment is not very edifying.

[Jochen]

Thanks, Britannicus, for this view of an 'insider'! As an 'outsider' like me one only could wait and hope that future will bring a solution to these interesting problems.

Jochen

[Britannicus]

Yes, I agree that we'll have to wait a bit to find out more the "Varus battle".
(And, by the way, I'm not an insider - provincials are my thing, not imperial issues. )
A young German friend of mine has just decided that his doctoral thesis will be on this subject. I wish him the best of luck in this academic nest of vipers - and I don't envy him!

[basemetal]

Given the controversy, it's interesting that there is a thriving cottage industry at the supposed "battle site." But then again there are so many "undisputed" locations of events in history that have not yet been fully resolved.

[Jochen]

Hallo to this old thread!

Now we have news from Kalkriese! Last week the archaeologists have presented their new excavation results. Susanne Wilbert-Rost has found typical Roman pointed trenches running parallel to the famous earth wall which should have been built by the German warriors. Additional a dolabra ( a Roman pick-axe) was found near by. So the conclusion could be that the German warriors have adopted Roman techniques or the wall was not built by Germans but by Romans. In this second case Kalkriese can't be the place of the Varus defeat but perhaps it is a military camp in connection with the battle of the Tiberian general Caecina AD 15 (source: Der Spiegel Nr.46, 13.Nov.2006, p.167). Today, 15.Nov.2006, there is a scientific convention in Detmold/Germany about this subject.

Curious to hear of the next news!

Best regards

[basemetal]

Just do remember that the booty of such a battle would have been distributed, and here a contradiction:
Far and wide.
Perhaps not by modern standards far and wide but still  a radius of many many miles.  And remember as stated above, that baggage train that got most probably left behind in the later stages.  Possibly where the bulk of the money was, plus the weapons wagons, the personal effects, ect.
History agrees I think that the victorious warriors were not insane and took all the goodies with them.
We are left with a mental image of dead roman soldiers with more or less their gear with them. No.
No one writes that in the later years when the "whitened bones of the defeated army were found"
that any of their gear were found with them.
The gear being anything from coins to weapons to the adornment of the female camp followers, was distributed far and wide, with perhaps "clumps" of such artifacts in the locations of former villages, gathering points ect.
Name anything but a dead body that would not have been scavenged. Metal was fabulously valuable. So were shields, of course coins, clothing, Jewelery. 
One could perhaps pinpoint the site from the lack of these things.

[Robert_Brenchley]

There wouldn't necessarily be an absence since it's likely that not every body was found and looted. Therre must have been people who crawled into the brambles to die, for instance, and bodies which were overlooked by looters. The one thing that could, possibly, give a conclusive answer would be the bodies themselves.

[basemetal]

Interesting point.  I'm betting that most were found, however.  A treasure hunt of grand porportions, both then and in the next couple of years. Basically free loot. Some brambles would not have interfered.   One either escaped or died nearby. 
Speculation: I wonder if DNA typing would show any difference in the backgrounds of current area residents, (long term families and such) in a way as to show for lack of a better word mediterrainan backgrounds?
Was there a large enough base of female (and male) camp followers taken captive and who subsiquently became wives, prostitutes, consorts, ect.  to make such a dfference?

[PeterD]

They were essentially on a search and destroy mission, in enemy territory, on the wrong side of the Rhine and in thick forest. Would they have taken camp followers, valuables and money? Wouldn't they have left everything in one of their garrison forts back on the other side of the river. What could they have spent their money on?

[rick fox]

They were essentially on a search and destroy mission, in enemy territory, on the wrong side of the Rhine and in thick forest. Would they have taken camp followers, valuables and money? Wouldn't they have left everything in one of their garrison forts back on the other side of the river. What could they have spent their money on?

The answer to this question, is yes.  Varus was moving from his forward camp to his winter camp.  It is said that the number of "followers" outnumbered the army at least 2-1.

Also it should be remembered that not all the Germans were enemies of Rome.  Many of the tribes (even some who were enemies) traded with the Romans.  The Black Market is not new.

[Robert_Brenchley]

They may well have done, but obedient subjects or satellites won't remain obedient if they're seriously badly treated. If Cassius Dio ('He not only gave orders to the Germans as if they were actual slaves of the Romans, but also levied money from them as if they were subject nations. These were demands they would not tolerate.') and Gaius Velleus Paterculus ('How far he was from despising money, Syria, of which he had been governor, afforded proof; for, going a poor man into that rich province, he became a rich man, and left it a poor province. Being appointed commander of the army in Germany, he imagined that the inhabitants had nothing human but the voice and limbs, and that men who could not be tamed by the sword, might be civilized by law.') were correct, he may simply have pushed them too far. A more modern parallel might be the battle of Isandhlwana; Cetshwayo was deliberately provoked into a war he never wanted, and incompetent generalship led the British to a major disaster.