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Author Topic: Archaic gorgon fake?  (Read 775 times)

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Offline Luigi G

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Archaic gorgon fake?
« on: January 04, 2021, 10:47:33 am »
Hi to all.
Let me say I very much appreciate all your work against coin forgeries.

I would like to know your opinion about the authenticity of this archaic Gorgon of uncertain mint (usually it is said to be from Parion, Mysia). I bought  it from a german auction.

Weight:: 3,10 g
Diameter: 13 mm

20210101-185146" border="0

20210101-185159" border="0








I will illustrate my concerns about authenticity in the next post..



Offline Luigi G

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Re: Archaic gorgon fake?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2021, 11:02:25 am »
My concerns:

First of all, I have found that the german auction house had sold other blatant fakes (one another to me too  :'(, I am a novice ).

Second, the style of the obverse seems to be not consistent with other (thinked) genuine examples I found  here:
http://snible.org/coins/parion.html

Third, I noticed similarity with another known fake you can see here:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=132
and here:
http://snible.org/coins/cast.html

I have make some image comparisons with the fake (my coin is on the left.)
Reverse:



Obverse:


At first glance obverses may look different but a friend of mine superimposed one image to another and they seem to match:


I am very eager to know your opinion and I thank you in advance.





Offline Din X

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Re: Archaic gorgon fake?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2021, 01:07:47 pm »
Even if the coin is a die match to a fake it does not really mean anything as long as the mother of the cast fake was not a modern hand cut die fake or recut transfer die fake.
There is always the option that the mother of cast, electrotype and transfer die fakes was authentic and then authentic coins from this dies exist!!!!!

You can use  any coin no matter if authentic or not to produce cast, transfer die or electrotype fakes.

The coin looks convincing in pictures and is possibly authentic and the mother of the cast fakes of snibleĀ“s homepage was most likely an authentic coin.
Your coin has different centering, flan shape etc can is clearly not related to this cast fakes.

If you can show me die matches that were condemned by a respected expert or collector as modern hand cut die fakes, then you coin if it is a die match must be 100% fake.
This is imho not the case here.

You can look if you can find coins from the same dies which are considered to be authentic (museum collections from excavation, approved by real experts of this emission, who are good in authentication as authentic).






Offline Ron C2

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Re: Archaic gorgon fake?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2021, 01:46:36 pm »
Fwiw, I don't think the reverse is the same die, and there isn't enough obverse showing to pronounce it a die match.

Also, as stated, a die match to a cast fake doesn't condemn your coin by itself.

Do you have reason to think your coin is cast? Is there flan filings, sanding, or sprue evidence?

Lastly, auction houses are a mixed bag. Because an auction house once sold a fake does not mean they sell primarily fakes, and the reverse is also true. A safe bet is to buy from an ancient coin dealer that handles these ancients regularly. For example, you could buy from forum ;)
My Ancient Coin Gallery: Click here

R. Cormier, Ottawa

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Archaic gorgon fake?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2021, 02:20:22 pm »
Looks normal for the type. Although I cannot authenticate it from a photo, I don't see any reason for suspicion.
Joseph Sermarini
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Offline Luigi G

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Re: Archaic gorgon fake?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2021, 03:25:36 pm »
Very thanks for your quick answers and your advices, they are very much appreciated.

Do you have reason to think your coin is cast? Is there flan filings, sanding, or sprue evidence?

In truth, I do not have precise reasons to think the coin is cast, but it is difficult for a novice to judge a coin like this, worn and of a type  not carefully engraved (some scholars think it is an archaic imitative typology by Tracian or North black sea tribes).


You can look if you can find coins from the same dies which are considered to be authentic (museum collections from excavation, approved by real experts of this emission, who are good in authentication as authentic).

I'll try, even if my reference material is, at the moment, limited.

Bye and thanks very much.


Offline esnible

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Re: Archaic gorgon fake?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2021, 10:30:52 pm »
Looks good.

They all look like that.

It is also difficult for an expert to judge a worn coin struck from worn dies.

Offline Luigi G

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Re: Archaic gorgon fake?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2021, 05:26:37 am »
Looks good.

They all look like that.

It is also difficult for an expert to judge a worn coin struck from worn dies.

Very thanks for your reply   :)

 

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