FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numism => Help For the New Ancient Coin Collector => Topic started by: Lucas H on August 26, 2011, 05:43:18 pm
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As this thread is for beginners, I thought some of the experienced collectors could share some mistakes they made as beginners or common mistakes they see beginners make. I think my biggest two mistakes were:
1. Trying to get a bunch of lower grade coins instead of a fewer nicer coins, and
2. Buying from popular auction sites (ebay) before having a clue what I was doing.
To help our other new collectors, and new collectors to come, please list your first mistakes or common mistakes you see beginners make. Nothing like learning from the mistakes of others. If we come up with a meaningful list, this might make a good thread to stick near the top of "for the New Ancient Coin Collector."
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Perhaps it should be mentioned that a common mistake for beginners who clean ancients is to strip all the patina to bare metal. This makes the coin look unattractive and will reduce the cost.
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A common mistake is to copy-paste reference numbers found in the various databases, or in the collections of others, usually on reference works they do not own.
In the vast majority of cases, these reference numbers are inaccurate , because they only refer to a similar variety. This mistake usually leads to a chain disaster, because another inexperienced collector will copy-paste this wrongly given reference number for his own similar variety, and the same mistake is done again, and again, having as a result a plethora of wrongly referenced, misattributed coins.
Best regards,
rover
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I'll second what Rover said, the mistake in that is thinking that you need a reference number to be a collector.
A reference to a catalog you do not own is useless and will likely be wrong. Trust (almost) no one, don't copy references you can't check. There are a lot of coin sellers (and of course collectors) that also just copy and paste references and know little, sometimes nothing about the coins they sell. I once bought a Provincial coin from Phrygia from a known seller that was described as a sestertius of Livia, with a very obscure sounding reference. If you're a new collector you might think, 'here's a seller that has an extensive library and really makes an effort' when in reality he didn't have a clue.
Sure, the majority of dealers are not like this one but I try to list only references I have checked myself or people I trust have checked for me, when I put others in my gallery I enclose them in brackets, to check later when I have the book in question.
If you're a new collector learn to describe the coins as precisely as you can, identify emperor, mint, legends, bust, reverse type etc. You don't need a reference number at this point.
Of course there are numerous other mistakes but use your brain and some common sense when shopping and you'll do ok.
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- Don't assume a coin is from Julius Caesar just because the name "CAESAR" appears on it (not a mistake I have seen from beginners, but a ploy I've seen from some sellers).
- Don't buy coins from ancient sites as a tourist. They a) are most likely fake and b) might offer you a visit in the local jail. Possibly even both.
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Get some books. More general ones to start with, until you know where your interest is going to be. Get both coin identification books and history; most of the interest is in understanding the coins and the historical background, rather than mere possession.
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Don't show your burgeoning collection to friends and family thinking they will be as impressed and interested as you are -- they won't be -- and their lack of enthusiasm will wear you down. Stick to online communities of the enlightened or better still a local club if there is one.
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One common mistake that I see (and used to make often) is getting too involved in rarity ratings. Especially RIC ratings. These books were complied long before Eastern Europe opened up. That r5 horseman now may have 200 brothers running around on the various sales sites.
Chris
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It is possible to buy coins on sites like eBay, but a beginner can get into serious trouble. A seller with a thousand positive feedbacks and no negatives is not a sure thing as to authenticity of any coins. Check our fake seller lists here. Buy from Forvm.
finally, if the deal seems too good to be true...you know the rest.
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- Don't buy coins from ancient sites as a tourist. They a) are most likely fake and b) might offer you a visit in the local jail. Possibly even both.
To expand on this (as I discovered a few years back) some countries like Jordon have fairly strict laws with regards to the buying selling and exporting of antiquities so check your laws before buying any coins while as a tourist.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=58388.0
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Many excellent pieces of advice. Especially regarding books - I literally get 10 times the enjoyment out of my collection by being able to read about both the coinage and the history as by just possessing the coins.
I would add one: "Don't specialize too early."
That may seem at odds with people who say to focus, which I'll admit is important, but by not specializing too narrowly too early you will keep many roads open for the future.
Some of my first puchases were lots - both uncleaned and just plain unattributed - from the so-called "Holy Land" region. I was interested in Roman Imperial coins and these lots seemed like a good deal. However, they included Greek cities, Seleucid, Ptolemaic, Judaean, Nabataean, Roman Provincial, Byzantine and Islamic (itself comprising a whole host of different types - Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid, Ayyubid, Turkoman, Ottoman, etc). I now have separate collections of each of these types of coinage and own several books on each of these types of coinage as well. While my main area of interest in late Roman bronze my overall enjoyment of the hobby has been increased greatly when I received these "extra" coins in lots.
Shawn
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I'll second what Rover said, the mistake in that is thinking that you need a reference number to be a collector.
A reference to a catalog you do not own is useless and will likely be wrong. Trust (almost) no one, don't copy references you can't check. There are a lot of coin sellers (and of course collectors) that also just copy and paste references and know little, sometimes nothing about the coins they sell.
yes yes yes yes yes!!!! wise words andreas.
A reference to a book you yourself own (e.g. "type is like Sear RCV 1234 but with head left rather than right, and with legend ending COS III rather than COS II") is of far greater numismatic value and demonstrates more serious numismatic study on your part than a copy-pasted reference, likely wrong, to a book you don't own and don't understand, and that your source may also not have owned or understood.
So you should refer to your own books, or to internet references which you can yourself check, e.g. "exact same type as acsearch.....".
This rigour, of referencing catalogues or internet sources which you actually have access to, forces you to LOOK and STUDY your coin and to note similarities and differences with your own reference sources. Eventually you may buy RIC. Then you will enjoy the pleasure from scratch of referencing a new book, which you can check yourself. But you may also decide you never need it.
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I would add one: "Don't specialize too early."
That may seem at odds with people who say to focus, which I'll admit is important, but by not specializing too narrowly too early you will keep many roads open for the future.
Spend the early collecting years in understanding what you like. Buy the best quality you can afford from a range of areas that interest you. There are no rules to start with. There is merit in assembling a collection of nice coins that ranges from Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Mediaeval, Renaissance, Enlightenment, and Modern eras, slowly and carefully, and then allowing the coins you have chosen to steer you down a collecting path for decades to come. You can still keep your representative collection. Just understand that whilst a representative collection of everything from Greek to Modern is a lovely thing, if it grows in size without any specialisation it can become a mish-mash. So there comes a time to stop a general collection and pursue a specific path.
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Spend the early collecting years in understanding what you like. Buy the best quality you can afford from a range of areas that interest you. There are no rules to start with. There is merit in assembling a collection of nice coins that ranges from Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Mediaeval, Renaissance, Enlightenment, and Modern eras, slowly and carefully, and then allowing the coins you have chosen to steer you down a collecting path for decades to come.[/quote]
Great post, and what you say is probably true for most collectors of Ancient coins. I will disagree on a small point, at the beginning, Quality (and Rarity) may not have nearly the importance they may acquire later on.
At the beginning the most important aspects affecting my purchasing decisions were historical interest, and identifiability.
For example, my first ancient coin purchases were Roman Republican denarii. Then I picked up a couple Greek bronzes, after that interest kept moving east, no depth (except in Chinese), but plenty of breadth. I did enjoy buying unattributed and/or uncleaned lots, the identification process is an enjoyable learning process that will push you into buying the reference books you need at the moment. After a while focus just happens.
Do NOT buy unattributed lots (or anything) at eBay until you are very familiar with a series, FORVM often has nice bulk lots for good prices, and you know they are genuine.
Purchase individual identified Good Quality coins from a good source when you begin to focus, or when something pretty catches your eye. Eventually you may notice that the last 5 or 10 purchases in a row were all in the same area. Now, improve your library and prepare to dig deep :).
In the end the shallow representative collection can still bring enjoyment and historical perspective.
I like to play a coin related game with my kids, we "buy" some "silk or tea" with a Chinese coin during a specific time period, then "trade and sell it " across the continent and into Europe (many possible routes) until we end up with a Roman coin in our hands. Looking at the changes in fabric, designs, etc. and talking about them is fun. We all learn a lot doing this.
Numismatics is a deep field there is no end to what one do, just stay with what gives you joy.
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When I started 20 years ago, I bought what interested me and used dealers I saw in Coins magazine or in The Celator. I've never been a big Ebay fan, unless I've researched the seller, or see him on this board. I was burned on Ebay but fortunately, it was under $100.
I didn't start specializing until about five years ago. I've also found that reading the books first (RIC, Sear, etc.) gives me a better feel for what I want and in which direction I want to go. I really like Vagi's work because of the historical summaries of the emperors, which whets my appetite (until I get sticker shock). Also, A.H.M. Jones' work on the later empire was a good read and an education on Diocletian's overhaul of the monetary system. Hendy's works are also great for context as well.
In the end, even while I'm browsing within my specialty (Probus), I tend to buy what I like, especially provincials, and I've never been disappointed.
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Not following the ongoing discussion of fakes/forgeries on the authentication/ fakes site here at Forum
I have learned a great deal about what to look for on coins to evaluate if the are authentic, fakes or re engraved for example
One can see The multiple types of junk that is waiting on ebay to deceive people such as them
That one can check the recorded fakes on file here etc. before buying
One can learn a lot about coins from various discussions such as over cleaning and corrosion real versus applied patina.
There are daily pieces of information there for the taking.
I will add the many other sub sites here if time permits. also provide a great deal of useful info.
It is impossible to stay here for long as a beginner and not pick up useful or interesting information
Gary
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I've lost count of the number of times I've seen beginners post fakes of expensive coins here. My advice would always to start with the cheaper coins - the Constantines, perhaps, or Gallienus and Claudius Gothicus. That way you can learn, there's a great deal of interest to be found, and if you do go wrong, you haven't wasted too much money.
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This is probably a mistake not limited to just beginners: In relation to finding information, people are becoming more accustomed to "Googling" a topic and coming up with instant, superficial answers. While the convenience is nice, our hobby has limited in-depth information on-line.
Entering a term in the search function of this board yields a gold mine of results; years of accumulated knowledge and wisdom from very experienced collectors and numismatists becomes quickly available. This board, and the internet in general, is also a good starting point for bibliographic research.
In the end, nothing beats knowing how to use footnotes and bibliographies for your own research, and attaining an easy familiarity with the literature found in journals and monographs. A quick look at any of the RIC volumes we all use will yield a very useful bibliography for futher research.
Folks are too impatient for tedious research, and want their answers short, sweet, and right now.
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Wikipedia is a good source to get the real sources!
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I have to disagree with a lot of the sentiments expressed so far. Just my opinion, of course, but I would say the only real mistake the beginning collector makes is losing interest because he/she rushed into a purchase that turned out to be a fake coin or one that was overpriced. If/when this is discovered there's a good chance that they'll be soured to the hobby from that point forward. This isn't exclusive to ancient coins as a hobby, it can and does happen every day buyers buying anything. No one likes to be taken advantage of and the one getting burned may lick his wounds by writing off that hobby/pursuit/interest as a market full of dishonest people and go on to the next thing.
So the only real mistake is not informing yourself beforehand sufficiently to avoid getting taken.
There's nothing wrong that I can see with buying the cheapest you can find on ebay. I did when I started out and the coins of course were junk but it fueled my interest anyway. So if it hadn't been for those scrappy $5 coins I likely would have never gone on to spend thousands later.
There's nothing wrong with going "ID crazy" either. To see this as an error is to misunderstand the psyche of a large segment of collectors. The reference id by itself may be meaningless but it serves a deep-rooted desire to "complete a set".
Likewise I see nothing wrong with specializing too soon or not gaining expert-level knowledge of the subject before buying your first coin. If you think about it, the more you impress on the beginner to do things some "right" way the more likely he'll just be turned off altogether. Collecting should be fun and rules are the very antithesis of fun. So I say buy whatever looks cool and you can afford but maybe learn just enough common sense to avoid getting robbed or stuck with a fake.
Ras
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Collecting should be fun and rules are the very antithesis of fun.
Sorry Ras, I don't agree with the statement. As an example, in my younger days I used to play Pool at a high level, nearly playing for the English national team. I thoroughly enjoyed my time doing it, and found it a lot of fun. Although there were definitely rules surrounding how the game was played, and they never detracted from the element of fun. In fact, without the rules the game would have been unplayable.
regards
Mark
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I have been collecting for just a few years now. The very first coins I bought were a handful of uncleaned LRBs. In retrospect, my first batch were mostly slugs with poor details on a few, but I was very excited to have something dating from the Roman empire in my hand, seeing any details emerge. I started grabbing random Roman coins where I could and researched who and what they were. That lasted for a little while, and I continued to buy uncleaned LRBs.
I guess you can say that I have refined my collecting, but you might not see it by looking at my collection. I have lots of Romans, Greeks, some Byzantines and other random coins from Edward I, and George III of England to Peter the Great of Russia. Basically now I like to think of myself as a collector of history through coins. Any historical figure or historical time I am interested in, I try and get a coin of that person or from a region during a significant time.
I have refined my Romans now to just collecting Emperors who are of particular interest to me. Emperors who I either like personally or that presided over the empire during interesting times. That also includes the Byzantine empire, as it basically became a continuation of the Roman empire. I do still enjoy cleaning coins sometimes, so I usually try to limit that to buying lots of uncleaned Large bronzes (usually first and early 2nd century) and I have a bit of a weakness for cleaning Greek coins. I love the variety, and love finding out where the greek coins originated from. Its always fun to find a batch dating back earlier than others. I also have a collection of biblical coins. That collection can be also chalked up to wanting to collect coins from significant times people and places. I would probably collect antiquities if I had a place to put them, or could afford them.
So in a nut shell I feel like I am a collector of history through coins. Any notable figure that interests me that I can get a coin of, I probably will seek out eventually, as well with places and times that are of interest to me. With that said.... I was in Venice on my honeymoon 5 years ago, and I just remembered that I am still on the look out for a medieval venetian coin, preferably with St. Marks lion on it!
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I do agree with Ras and I think I've said it myself a couple of times. If you're new to collecting it is an exciting time and you should buy what you like (and can afford) and see where it takes you. If you use some common sense it's really not that hard. I went years before I bought my first fakes and in those circumstances they could have fooled a more experienced collector as well. Of course I did overpay for some of the common Late Romans I bought early on but not grossly so.
Collecting ancient coins is a fun hobby that can keep you occupied for decades but nothing can match the excitement of first starting out, when everything is new and you shouldn't ruin that by rules or listening to the advice of 'serious' and 'experienced' collectors.
Of course if you don't have much common sense and like to buy your coins from shady bazaars, online or offline, then maybe this approach is not for you. This is not aimed at anyone in particular. :)
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Ras stated that "rules are the antithesis of fun". That is why I disagreed. It's all well and good saying go forth and buy whatever as you are a new collector, but there have to be some rules. Whether the rules you impose on yourself are "don't spend more than $x" on a single purchase (as Andreas alluded to in his post), or "don't clean uncleaned coins with a sledge hammer" doesn't matter. These types of rules shouldn't be the "antithesis of fun", but merely help maintain the element of fun for the new collector whilst they find their own direction.
regards
Mark
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Of course I had rules, very strict ones even. One of them, and I followed it for a few years, was 'don't buy from shady Ebay sellers' and my definition of 'shady' included sellers who couldn't spell properly. I'm no longer as strict now that I am more confident in my own abilities to spot fakes.
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I’m not sure it is rules you’re actually referring too but rather expectations.
In golf you cannot reasonably expect to step on the course your first day and hit a hole in one or break the course record, you might get lucky but the odds are against it. However over time you gain skill and expand the level of risk, like pushing a club 10 yards longer than you normally hit for an eagle. One day, many years down the road, you’re surprised when a novice asks your advice
Collecting is the same; keep your expectations (rules) commensurate with the level of skill you have developed and you’ll receive many years of enjoyment; push too fast and you’ll be that guy breaking his club against the golf cart (in the woods twenty yards off the path).
Taking risk can be healthy and profitable but recognize it is just a matter of luck until you develop the right skills to make your own luck. (Like areich buying from shady ebayers)
Biggest mistake – not recognizing how much you need to learn to be really good and not "just lucky".
HK
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I think that the syndrome described above is pretty common - buying coins just for the kick of winning an auction at (you hope) a bargain price or, worse, as an addictive habit. The internet has made it too easy to purchase coins with the click of a mouse and not much thought. When I put a coin in my gallery I try to write a paragraph about it essentially explaining to myself why I bought it. If you can't do that perhaps you should do some reading and research before your next purchase.
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So what do those of us who cannot choose do?
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Then you learn and move on. Everyone needs a few life lessons in everything we do.
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.... the right philosophy. There's always plenty more coins to obsess over out there. But then that is the problem for the novice collector..... decisions, decisions.
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Don't carry valuable coins as pocket pieces to show your friends. Stick with the lower value variety.
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Another thing to be wary of on e-bay and other auction sites are fakes that are snuck in as part of a batch of other items like "metal detecting finds", or "tin of old coins". You may think you will be getting fantastic bargin and then find you receive something else for your black cabinet collection. Usually the photo is a bit blurred (often only one side of the coin is going to be shown) and the description is very general but accurate enough to true (i.e. "Roman to Modern" with the fake coin that you spot falling into modern stuff). In some cases it will be an honest mistake by the seller. However I won one recently where I believe the seller did it intentionally. Ask for additional photos & descriptions, or don't bid to high.
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Most of the time it is done intentionally, that's a very common trick.
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One of the most common mistake beginners make is not understanding the impact of quality (eye appeal) on price. A superb coin can cost 10x or more the price of an average example of the exact same type. New collectors tend to think a nice coin is overpriced and think a poor coin is a bargain. In fact, a nicer more expensive coin may be the real bargain.
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I know some have said it's a mistake to go after low-grade cheap coins. It's true that better coins make a better collection, but I see value in acquiring some cheap (perhaps uncleaned) coins early on because it will help you get a feel for things like genuine patinas, wear, fabric, and corrosion... in other words, knowing what is "normal" for a coin that has spent 2000 years underground. Think of it as Ancient Coins 101.
While you're at it, purchase some of the products (like JAX) commonly used to repatinate coins and test them out on some slugs so that you can learn to spot coins that they have been used on. There's some things you just can't learn from a book.
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I spent a few hundred on uncleaned when I was starting; it was money well spent.
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There's nothing wrong with starting cheap as long as you educate yourself first. But if you're going to spend money on fakes, it's better if they're cheap ones. Most coins on Ebay are genuine but those that appeal to new collectors, because they're cheap and of good condition are more often fakes that are cheap because most people know better and don't bid. Just read a lot and look at lots of pictures of genuine coins and you will start to spot the worst fakes very soon.
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Don't feel like you made a mistake based on what someone else considers a mistake. It's only a mistake if the coins end up being a fraud, or if you feel regret and are unable to appreciate what you are holding in you're hand. If what you bought makes you happy and you are able to learn more about its history, and it then inspires you to expand you're interest in coin collecting, then it may be a fine starter till you find youre collecting nitch.
Basically if it makes you happy then its not a mistake.
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Thanks for all answers. I have tried to look at coins on this forum that are fakes to learn, but I still think it is very hard to spot them myself. I guess that most of you have many years of collecting acient coins and therefor knows what to look for. I think maybe that the coins I bought looks to clean and perfect on the surface, so maybe I have bought cheap fakes, hope not.. I will upload pictures on the forum and hope that someone can tell me if they are fakes or not. If they are fakes you'll get another bad seller to the list. I thought that since the seller had sold alot of coins that he might be trustworty, and i hope that he is.:)
I think that newbies like me think very different from longtime collectors because we just dontknow enough what to look for. I have alot to learn, and I am very glad I found this forum, just wished I had found it before I bought my coins. :)
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Many sellers that have been selling coins for years still know little about the coins and copy their descriptions (correctly or incorrectly) from somewhere else. It takes a while to spot these sellers. At first, as a new collector, you don't doubt what coin sellers say but after a while you see they're just people and some of them are not very good at what they're doing. What I'm trying to say is if they're fakes the seller doesn't necessarily have to be dishonest, just not very competent. But just because coins are very well-preserved doesn't mean they have to be fakes. If, on the other hand, the coins you bought are normally much more expensive in comparable condition (which is a whole other thing to learn), that is a reason to worry.
You have looked and he is not on the list? The coins might be perfectly fine and the seller very honest and competent, that is a reason for the rule that says not to name the seller unless you are nominating him for the fake seller list. And before a nomination, pictures of the coins they are offering should be posted to judge whether even a nomination is justified.
But, to cut a long story short, post the pictures in a thread on the fakes board, one coin per thread, with all the information you have on them EXCEPT, for now, the name of the seller.
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1 common mistake, from when I started five years ago, was to just see "Roman coin" and want to bid on it.
That there was no attribution given in any way, such as the emperor, or even worse, just 1 photo, did not bother me then.
Those are the seller to avoid. You want to see both sides of the coin.
Another example is blurring a photo to hide that it is a replica, such as happened recently by a seller on eBay. They only had 1 photo of the obverse side of a "Roman coin" and it was blurred.
It was obvious why it was blurred as it was the initials of WRL on the "coin" ... a Westair Reproductions Limited product.
Only when I emailed them about this fact did they add "replica" to the description. I saved their "100%" feedback score.
Go for a well attributed coin, provenance is nice but not to be taken seriously always. There is one seller who seems to have all his coins "found near the Thames" and I am not sure the Mud Larks are allowed to sell so much, what they find most be reported to the Museum of London.
It is better to buy a tarnished, even verdigris ridden coin, that can be cleaned, than a "shiny" cheap one with no attribution. They tend to be replicas or forgeries.
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One of my very first coins was my Probus Antoninianus, bought just because it was an Ancient Roman coin from Ebay when I was just starting out. I enjoyed it at first since it was my first real attributed Ancient coin, even though I knew noting of Probus at the time.
As I discovered my collecting nitch, the coin didn't mean so much to me anymore for a while because it was just a random purchase to me, as I started fine tuning what I want to collect. Now that my collection has expanded more and I have read more books on Roman history, I'm glad I have it again now that its situated with my other 3rd Century crisis and decline coins. Maybe its just luck that I came back around to collecting Romans in that era...
My advice in this area is that its probably a good idea to think about what you may want to collect, before making impulse buys... Learn some history before rather than aimlessly buying and learning the history later. I do like to buy uncleaned coins though to discover what they are and learn their history that way though.
Danny
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... Learn some history before rather than aimlessly buying and learning the history later...
My approach, though as a dealer the financials are a bit different, has always been opppsite. The coins I aquire inspire me to learn the history related to them. I think it is a fun approach, though perhaps not ideal for someone with the intent of building a focused collection rather than just enjoying the hobby.
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OK, an example. Today I uploaded two consigned coins of the Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Stratsimir. I spent almost an hour reading about the history of the Second Bulgarian Empire and Ivan Stratsimir. Here is the listing info and RSI I added for the coins...
Lot of 2 Groshes, Tsardom of Vidin, Bulgaria, Ivan Stratsimir, 1356 - 1396
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/55654q00.jpg)
ME55654. Silver lot, Lot of 2 Silver Groshes, cf. Radushev - Zhekov 1.14.1 ff., aVF, weight c. 0.6g, maximum diameter c. 16mm, obverse Cyrillic legend, half-length nimbate bust of Christ facing, right hand raised in benediction, Gospels in left, flanked by IC - XC (Jesus Christ); reverse Cyrillic legend, Ivan Stratsimir seated facing on throne, lis-tipped scepter in right, mappa in left; actual coins in the photograph; $40.00
Factional divisions between feudal landlords had split the Second Bulgarian Empire into three small tsardoms-Vidin, Tarnovo and Karvuna-and several semi-independent principalities. Ivan Stratsimir ruled in Vidin. In 1393 Bulgaria and the surrounding region fell to the Ottoman Empire. Only Vidin remained free from the invading Turks, but this would not last. In 1396 Ivan Stratsimir joined the Christian crusade organized by the Hungarian king Sigismund. The Christian army suffered a heavy defeat on 25 September at the battle of Nicopolis. The victorious Ottoman sultan Bayezid I marched to Vidin and seized it by the end of 1396 or the beginning of 1397. Ivan Stratsimir was captured and imprisoned in the Ottoman capital Bursa where he was probably strangled.
The coin inspired me to learn the history. If it had not been consigned to me, I likely would have never learned anything about Ivan Stratsimir.
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Building a focused collection is certainly not incompatible with having fun. But the specific sort of fun that I describe may be incompatible with building a focused collection. I think if you are building a focused collection, you likely know the related history already.
Since my aquisitions are somewhat random based on the what others select and send, they take me unexpected places that I enjoy. Random and focused do seem to be incompatible.
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... Learn some history before rather than aimlessly buying and learning the history later...
My approach, though as a dealer the financials are a bit different, has always been opppsite. The coins I aquire inspire me to learn the history related to them. I think it is a fun approach, though perhaps not ideal for someone with the intent of building a focused collection rather than just enjoying the hobby.
That is what is similar for me about cleaning uncleaned coins. When I was suggesting the learning of history first, it was mainly directed to those who are aimlessly starting out as I did (and as its sounds, plenty of others did) so that maybe they can find some direction before making any blind purchases they might regret. If I am buying a Roman coin that is already attributed these days, then its probably something thats been on my radar. I will find myself buying random Greek coins though and then reading about the history, location and Era after the fact, but thats because they differ so much from region to region, rather than going for specific emperors or periods. Also the art and designs on many of the greeks are great for impulse buys.
Of corse I'm always up for impulse Sunday night FORVM Ebay listings! ;D which I need to get back to checking out more again these days....
What all this thread really boils down to is, "to each their own". That and making sure that you're not dealing with a shady seller. Thats probably the most important advice to take out of this thread.
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As a beginner, the one "mistake" I know I made and 1 rule I have.....
DON'T SURF FOR COINS WHEN YOU ARE DRUNK!!!!!!!!
You will get a surprise in the mail 1-2 weeks later (and a pissed off spouse to go along with it).
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As a beginner, the one "mistake" I know I made and 1 rule I have.....
DON'T SURF FOR COINS WHEN YOU ARE DRUNK!!!!!!!!
You will get a surprise in the mail 1-2 weeks later (and a pissed off spouse to go along with it).
Don't get into online arguments when drunk either! Or even after a modest few glasses of wine. You will be embarrassed in the morning!
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I like a little bit of direction/focus, but the more interesting coins I've gotten were mostly impulse buys :evil:
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Here is another thing that I just noticed, one dealer selling the same coins both on their website & e-bay seems to be doubling the prices for the coins on the e-bay. Most of the coins listed on e-bay that I saw were "buy it now or best offer" so presumably the selling strategy is aimed at getting a minimum 50% offer to get the sale price that's showing on their website. However it seems a bit unfair for the poor unsuspecting novice who might make a more reasonable offer. I don't think it is wide practise (probably just that dealer) but the bottom line is before buying or placing a offer to a dealer selling on e-bay, check their website.
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How reasonable that other price is is another question. There's a well-known Ebay seller hat offers a substantial percentage of all ancients on Ebay that uses prices that are sometimes 10x too high to lure in people with more money than sense.
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my biggest mistake as a new collecter was assuming uncleaned roman coins ment getting a bunch of ceasers and neros. but then again, i started this hobby by watching hbo's rome and wondering if you could get a roman coin. also, my first uncleans i might have scrubbed a little too hard. luckily, i got reletively cheap uncleans and didn't really destroy anything too exciting. i hope.
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You do get caesars. Constantine as caesar, Constantine II as caesar, Constantius as caesar... ;D
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I had a Nero in an uncleaned lot once.
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Another great topic...
My own experience over the last year or so has been a bit wandering...
I was given a nice Hadrian Silver denarii by a friend after doing him a favour, as I had mentioned to him I collected old coins in my teenage years.. and thus I was hooked again!
30 years ago I had collected old English and a few Roman ( is it my memory, or were Tetricus much more common in those days? ) , but now after spending a few years in Greece my collection is veering towards Greek, and seems to be developing by itself.... I love Rodean coins, as that is where I lived... I have bought several batches of uncleaned bronze coins to hone my skills with, which have turned out to be mostly Macedonian and Seleucid, so now I have a couple of pages of each in my binder along with one or two of each in silver, and with every new coin I acquire and research I learn a little more about the wonderful history of that area. I will still however buy the odd Roman if it appeals to me somehow... and have a couple of very nice tiny silver coins from Thrace which I bought because they were very old, pretty, silver and in my price range, and which I am saving to research over the dark Swedish winter months.
It would be completely fair to say my collection lacks focus, other than it is all over 1500 years old, but it gives me hours upon hours of pleasure, both holding and researching the clean ones, and slowly picking away at the uncleaned ones, uncovering their secrets.
I can however totally agree with the advice regarding on-line auctions and alcohol... even down to the point about the angry wife!!
Best wishes...
Lee.
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As a beginner, the one "mistake" I know I made and 1 rule I have.....
DON'T SURF FOR COINS WHEN YOU ARE DRUNK!!!!!!!!
You will get a surprise in the mail 1-2 weeks later (and a pissed off spouse to go along with it).
I find that my taste is still quite good while drinking, but my budget expands considerably.
My advice to new collectors is to learn to listen to the coin. A coin that should be yours speaks to you the moment you see it. Your heart leaps a wee bit when you see it and your pulse quickens. If it's an auction, step away from the catalogue for a few days. When you go back through it online or in hand and your heart jumps when you run across "that" coin again, you know it's speaking to you. I've never regretted owning a coin that speaks to me. I've winced at what I've paid for them (especially after using a wine infused budget), but I've never regretted owning the coin. This goes for dealers stock, coin shows, etc. If you listen to the coin at first sight, it will speak to you every time you take it out of your case and hold it in your hand.
On coins that have spoken to me that I haven't purchased, I have regretted not buying it...or at least attempting to buy it. Those coins still reside in my minds eye and I look for them every time I open a catalogue, rarely finding that our paths cross again.
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Don't be ashamed to be a beginner.
With 36 years of assorted numismatic experience, you'd think I could call myself an expert in something.
Not so.
Coming to this site after collecting Roman coins for five years, I very quickly realized how out of my depth I was. I've been a numismatic hobbyist for a long time, and I'm passionate and reasonably intelligent, but I will never be the devoted scholar so many folks are here.
I guess I'm more of a dabbler. I sample little sips of knowledge from a pretty wide variety of sources, and seldom drink very deeply from any one glass. On one hand, this makes me "well rounded" as a numismatist, but on the other, it means I am a little bit shallow- the proverbial "jack of all trades and master of none". I'm guess I am a generalist and not a specialist.
What I'm getting at here is... don't be afraid to be yourself, and give yourself time to learn and ask questions without being embarrassed about it, even after you have years of experience.
We can't all be scholars. Or wealthy, elite collectors. Or bigtime dealers.
But there's a niche for everyone. Don't be discouraged, and give yourself time to find yours.
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Thanks for the tips guys. I'll have to read as many books as I can in all areas and focus on one. I think Greek coins maybe and as far as a more pointed interest I'm getting there.
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Thanks for the tips guys. I'll have to read as many books as I can in all areas and focus on one. I think Greek coins maybe and as far as a more pointed interest I'm getting there.
Hello and welcome!
Make sure you read this at Numiswiki if you have not already:
Ancient Coin Collecting 101
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Ancient Coin Collecting 101 (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Ancient Coin Collecting 101)
For books, you may want to read this:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=69854.0
It covers some good books, but also points out the availability of online resources before you start buying books.
Read a lot of threads and resources at the Forum. Their are also good websites. For a beginner, I highly recommend Doug Smith's pages: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/ hosted here at the Forum. For a resource hosted outside the Forum, I also recommend Warren Esty's site: http://esty.ancients.info/
The resources above should provide hours of reading and get you well on your way.
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my biggest misconception was thinking that because something is ancient it "just has to be worth a lot of money" and i think it is a common one as well.
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Take it in small bites! It is easy to go overboard.
I originally went the way of US Modern Coins, specifically Indian Head Cents. To say the least, that's a world in itself. Spent too much collecting coins I couldn't touch. And, the more I delved, the more I realized, most modern collectable coins seem to go straight from the mint to the shelf. Where is the history in that? I wasn't "getting it." When I spoke on modern coin forums, I could feel the stares on the back of my neck. "They" don't care about the history behind the coin, just the current market value and how to keep it highest. (I'm sure some of that exists here as well, but no where near the same intensity.)
Started realizing that wasn't me. So, I got a digital microscope and started looking at my dirty coins, thinking, I can clean these up. The uproar was phenomenal. I was going to destroy my coins.
Well, the patinae on my coins are fine, but "hairline" scratches make them worth less than they were dirty. BUT, I really enjoyed working with them, learned a lot about cleaning coins without damaging them, and now they look great. (Display worthy.) Eventually, someone suggested if I want to work with the coins, I needed ancient coins. I guess he was concerned I was going to ruin his future investments. It is a different mindset on modern coins.
That led to this forum. Coins I can work with, hold the history in my hands... okay, it is not just me... I see a bunch of you in here. So, I chose to start out by buying a "better" bronze coin from the shop as my initial coin so that I could have the "goal" in my possesion when I start working on these uncleaned "rocks". As for the crusty coins, they are guaranteed authentic. Cost a little more than the ebay relatives, but look in the fake coin postings and you will notice a trend. You get what you pay for. Can't beat the guarantee and they were not picked over twenty times before being listed. (I might have a real treasure in there... ;D )
I didn't buy a hoard, but just a few of the more common coins so I could learn the cleaning process. (And, if I damage a few, then I didn't destroy some magnificent piece of history.) Taking it slow on the cleaning as I want to achieve a coin or two that look like my "goal" coin. Plus, if I don't have the patience for cleaning them, then I shouldn't.
Attribution is the final goal. I'll be back here for more information as I get closer to that point, but I'm already starting to collect a few books to help me out. I am hoping that once I've put in the work on a few coins, I'll find a time period I like best and settle into this hobby. From just looking in the shop, I'm already more strongly attracted to the animals and gods of the greek coins.
Of course, it is a very personal hobby as one can tell by the look from my wife and the shake of her head indicating a failure to understand as I hunch over a microscope with a toothpick, cotton swab or fine needle cleaning my coins. And, trying to spark interest in others over a dingy green coin that isn't stamped very well... it's a slow process... but, when you tell them this coin is over 2000 years old... They're eyes light up, at least for a moment or two.
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Get some books. More general ones to start with, until you know where your interest is going to be. Get both coin identification books and history; most of the interest is in understanding the coins and the historical background, rather than mere possession.
Many great comments here, but for me this is the single most important piece of advice and NOT just for beginners. The corollary is to actually spend some time reading/reviewing things once they arrive. I collect US currency and it always amazes me that folks will pay many $k for a note but balk at buying a book or other reference to really learn what they are doing and understand the difference between rare and popular (and how each impacts price/value).
And there are a few areas where I've bought a book only to decide that the area wasn't going to work out for me (generally non-western issues, just can't get the hang of the legends).
What fun!
;D
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I bought my first Seaby RCTV guide following 3 LRBs which I purchased in Egypt in the 1970s as a kid. The coins cost me perhaps $1 each, the guidebook about $20. That was about the right ratio of coin-to-book-investment, wholly appropriate for a new collector, study your book(s) until you can recite your Seaby (now Sear) handbooks by heart! That's how I got to know each Roman emperor and Roman history in general from the small blurb at the start of each Sear section. However internet resources perhaps means it's a little less essential nowadays. The Seaby Greek guidebook didn't have such a clearly laid out story, and furthermore all of the first few Greek bronzes I bought were missing from GCTV. Hence I went Roman. I don't know why I stumbled on the Republic.
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Two related common beginner mistakes:
1. Collecting ancients as an investment. If you are paying retail or auction prices for your coins, don't expect to make big profits within 10 years-although individual results may vary!
2. Putting too much money into your collection under the mistaken impression that you can sellcoins quickly any time you need cash. It is not that easy to find quick buyers for your ancient coins unless you are buying highly desireable, high quality coins. This ia a corollary to the "buy the quality over quantity" advice given earlier on this thread. It is easier to sell quality, if you need to sell.
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1. Collecting ancients as an investment. If you are paying retail or auction prices for your coins, don't expect to make big profits within 10 years-although individual results may vary!
I recall seeing an article a year or so ago (can't remember where the link was from, probably here somewhere) about a collectors $60,000,000 collection. The comment that has always stuck in my head was "probably cost him $100,000,000 to acquire it!"
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I'm just getting started on ancient coins. Looking through many of the posts, a lot of links to references are broken and many of the viable references (ie. RIC) were written decades ago. Are there more up-to-date references that I should be using?
I understand attribution with these "older" references is still quite accurate with the exception that rarity and "unpublished" varieties are likely out of date. And, many of these attributes can usually be found online for free. But, I am a bit old school and like to hold things in my hands, put stickies on the pages to indicate what I've found, or even ink in a update of my own. The books are almost as personal as the coins!
So, before I invest in my personal set of references, I'd like to know I'm getting the best I can for the money. (Doesn't have to be expensive, just usable and accurate.) At the moment, I have a few random pieces from the Roman Empire and one Egyptian coin if that helps in generating a list of references. (Or point me to a working list.)
Meanwhile, I'll keep looking through the posts.
Thanks
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I'm just getting started on ancient coins. Looking through many of the posts, a lot of links to references are broken and many of the viable references (ie. RIC) were written decades ago. Are there more up-to-date references that I should be using?
I understand attribution with these "older" references is still quite accurate with the exception that rarity and "unpublished" varieties are likely out of date. And, many of these attributes can usually be found online for free. But, I am a bit old school and like to hold things in my hands, put stickies on the pages to indicate what I've found, or even ink in a update of my own. The books are almost as personal as the coins!
So, before I invest in my personal set of references, I'd like to know I'm getting the best I can for the money. (Doesn't have to be expensive, just usable and accurate.) At the moment, I have a few random pieces from the Roman Empire and one Egyptian coin if that helps in generating a list of references. (Or point me to a working list.)
Meanwhile, I'll keep looking through the posts.
Thanks
It really depends on what interests you. There are so many numismatic publications it is mind boggling. I'd recommend you start with some of David Sear's books. He's published good general works on virtually every area of classical numismatics-Greek, Roman, Greek Imperial (Roman Provincial) and Byzantine, etc.
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ModernCoinTraitor:
Note that there is a "Books and References" section on Forum that might help you in this area. Also, there is a Book Recommendations for Beginners thread under the Beginners section of Forum.
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I'm just getting started on ancient coins. Looking through many of the posts, a lot of links to references are broken and many of the viable references (ie. RIC) were written decades ago. Are there more up-to-date references that I should be using?
I understand attribution with these "older" references is still quite accurate with the exception that rarity and "unpublished" varieties are likely out of date....
"decades ago" is really nothing for coin series that have been accurately documented since about 1500. Yes more coin hoards from the Balkans in the 1990s have decreased rarity and increased the varieties known in certain series (especially LRBs), but not much has really changed since the first accurate coin catalogues were produced during the Renaissance. The refresh time in academic ancient coin reference books is typically about 50 to 75 years. Under 50 years and they are up-to-date, over 100 years and catalogues begin to appear dated. The RIC volumes done in the 1920s were refreshed in the 1980s but those "decades ago" volumes are still probably in the early part of their life cycle! They are all also in-print, usually by Spink, and there shouldn't (legally) be free downloads on the web. The hardcover copies are easily available but expensive.
Collector Handbooks (non academic) are a different matter. Handbooks are refreshed almost daily based on printing technology advances, colour photography, the wish to list current prices, and, most important, the wish of the seller to sell more copies of essentially unchanged books for much longer by sticking on a new cover. I still use my 1951 copy of "Roman Silver Coins 1" even though the most recent issue is the 2010 reprint of the 1978 edition. The 1951 handbook is, in turn, a condensed version in English of Babelon's 1885 Monnaies de la Republique Romaine. When you read a freshly printed brand-new "Roman Silver Coins", the catalogue's arrangement and numbering is by Babelon, 150 years ago! The prices in both the 1951 and 1978 editions are both out-dated, but of more importance is the relative pricing which has stayed constant (if coin A was worth double coin B in 1951, the same roughly applies today, and probably also in 1850 and in 1750). Both have similar numismatic information (though some dates have been changed, references to a 1974 catalogue added and photos replaced line drawings). The most up-to-date handbooks generally rely the same (old) academic volumes for their reference material, so despite their glossy covers the information within may be decades or centuries old.
Given your collecting status, just starting out, the Sear handbooks are just fine. At the very outset I often recommend the cheaper all-in-one 1988 volume over the separate 2000's onwards volumes. Better value, and much of the same information within. As one advances one might want the full suite of the latest Sear handbooks and/or Roman Silver Coins volumes (5 vols) and/or Sear's Greek handbook (once again, the old editions are just as good as the more recent printings). You could do worse than buy the single volume 1988 handbook as a starter. As far as real information is concerned, it's got 80% of what you'll get from buying the much lengthier replacements + Roman Silver Coins. Fewer coins are listed to be sure, but the Imperial potted biographies and the history of Roman coins is not improved by listing more coin varieties.
Bear in mind that unlike modern coins, they are not making any new ancient coins any more (at least, I hope not). So, a US coin Red Book or a World Coin Krause Handbook printed in 1980 will miss 33 years of coin issues. But an ancient coin handbook printed in 1980 (or, indeed, in 1580) has more or less exactly the same coins to describe as one published today. Old is Gold.
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Foreword: I am still considered a beginner in ancients albeit I have been ad-hoc collecting world coins for over 30 years during my travels with Uncle Sam.
I wish I would have stumbled upon this link before I ventured into buying on Ebay about three months ago. I think I made most if the mistakes listed here. If would not see the dates of the postings dating back to a few years I would have thought that they are talking about me :) So most of these these great tips and advices above my post are timeless.
As I wrote in my introductory posts (that also became a confessional) under the "Fakes" thread, my mistakes were that I had too much credence in Ebay's feedback system. I relied on it since before 1998 but that same system cannot be applied to coins, ancient coins in particular.
Another mistake was that although I had a few electronic and hard copy reference sources on ancients, I was more interested in the history behind a coin and not the coin itself. Thus I did not make a lot of efforts in learning what the characteristics of various ancient coins are, how to evaluate and identify them, where to seek out authoritative advice and reference considering their value and authenticity. Ancient coin collecting is not as binary as building a modern coin collection. In comparison to modern coins, there are many more factors that comprise an ancient's attractiveness and value to a collector, amongst them art and style. The weight of these may vary from person to person, but in many cases they are a huge factor in collectability.
One mistake that I am still working through and trying to gauge is collecting ancients for investment as a beginner. No, my primary goal is not to make money, but since I do not have unlimited funds I want to make sure that the ancients I owe at least retain their value, and in some cases they may increase it. I think I know enough already to realize that only in very rare an lucky cases will I buy a coin that is worth more than what I paid for (if I want to sell it immediately). In most cases if you want to resell the coin right away it's worth 20-50% less. I think we are all hoping that there are really rare coins out there that YOU will discover or you get to acquire somehow at a deep discount, but for these I think you need luck and a real intricate knowledge of the ancients market.
An obvious, but easily made mistake: do not attempt to clean coins (any coins) unless you know what you doing. That's especially true for ancients as they require more tender loving care ad are judged differently from modern coins in their condition. So I need to experiment on less valuable ones first and only after reading up on competent cleaning advice. Also, many ancients in order to remain in the same condition may require special steps of preservation that most modern coins would not.
And for last bu not least is that constructive positive guidance versus dismissing criticism towards beginners goes a long way in attracting and retaining new collectors. And I thank the Forvm for being supportive and constructive when they could have been critical and dismissive! :)
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Hi All,
I am a novice collector/cleaner with only 3 months experience and have already learnt some valuable lessons.
1. Stay away from Descale - I purchased a lot of uncleaned imperials which were very encrusted and was recommended descale for a rapid clean. Ended up ruining the coins.
2. Careful when buying cheap lots from ebay. Most of them are Constantine's and Licinius's.
That's my 2 cents. Still learning a lot from these discussions and just happy to be involved!
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Re your #2.
There is nothing wrong with coins of Constantine and Licinius. Even in very high quality late Roman lots you will get mainly coins of them and their families plus the Valentinian gang. Many can be very beautiful, some are rare, all have historical interest. The real reason to avoid cheap ebay lots is that you will get poor quality coins.
Shawn
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I think you're right. I've had the same thing.
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What I did, which I do not reccommend doing, is buying a bulk lot of uncleaned roman coins on eBay and trying to clean them with no knowledge of how to clean them. After soaking them in distilled water, oil and even pure lemon juice (with no luck), I resorted to electrolysis. I zapped one of the coins, and, instead of turning into a beuatiful coin with the patina intact, I was left with a flat (but very shiny) disk! I do not recommend doing that unless you know exactly what you're doing! I think I'll just bury them in the garden or something!
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Maybe shop at FORVM instead?