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Author Topic: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina  (Read 138709 times)

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Offline Hydatius

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2004, 09:54:23 am »
I have been through many of the coins that are still posted on e-Bay under this seller's name (search by seller for monneron).  I am convinced that virtually all of them are fake (there are some that look odd but not grossly so, and so I am uncertain).  The style is not only wrong but consistant over many reigns, mints (Arles, Siscia, and Trier at least), officinae, and emperors.  Evan/Wolfgang366 posted two coins above.  The first is definitely authentic; the second is just as obviously fake.  I don't know anything about patinas (patinae?), but stylistically these coins stink.  Most of them aren't even that good, and I find it surprising that anyone would consider them authentic.  Also note that monneron tends to sell to the same people.
   Richard Burgess
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Offline whitetd49

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2004, 10:07:18 am »
This thread has been going so long, I got curious and looked up monneron as suggested.  The Helena is genuine.  The Licinius II is a terrible fake.  I believe that the "peculiar patina" coins, as a whole, are fakes.  I suspect that after all the discussion (from experts) that, justifiably, my opinion won't carry much weight, but I'm pretty sure.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2004, 09:34:15 am »
monneron replied to an inquiry from a CFDL member and the result was posted on CFDL.  He says he purchased them from a collector he has known for several years and who has had the coins as long as he has known him.  The collector told him they are from a hoard but would not provide additional information.

That is the only possibility I can think of that could explain these coins as genuine - they were selected from a much larger hoard that was long ago dispersed.  

I think we should be looking for die matches.  If someone has saved images, I expect we will find some in his prior sales.  We may even find them in the pics still up on eBay.
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Offline Hydatius

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2004, 12:59:38 pm »
After being "100% certain" that these coins are fakes, I had a look at 21 images that I had taken from monneron's e-Bay listing of coins of Constantine I and II, Constans, and Constantius, and not only can I find no die links, I can find multiple versions of the same reverse and obverse types that are all quite different.  Would a forger really spend so much time producing so many different dies of the same type for coins of such low value?  I can think of a "hoard" of late Roman solidi that contained 35 coins, yet there were only six different types of coins.  The Black Sea hoard came from many different dies, of course.  But the style of many of these coins still really bothers me.   Have we become so fixated on forgeries that we see forgers under every bed, or rather behind every odd-looking coin?
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Offline wolfgang336

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2004, 01:32:04 pm »
Quote
Would a forger really spend so much time producing so many different dies of the same type for coins of such low value?

Maybe he thought that the lack of die matches would make for a better fake hoard. Nobody said the forger is bright. And actually, these coins are fetching rather impressive sums.

Evan

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2004, 03:11:16 pm »
I also asked the seller about the authenticity of the coins and the possibility of a hoard, on 20-Jun; here is his answer (original msg, followed by the translation in English):

"je suis certain de l'authenticité des monnaies. Il s'agit d'une vieille et importante collection de monnaies de bronze de Constantin et sa famille dont certaines monnaies m'ont été confiées à la vente. Cette collection comprend de nombreuses monnaies d'Arles mais aussi de bien d'autres ateliers. Simplement j'ai mis en vente spécifiquement quelques monnaies d'Arles pour les amateurs de cet atelier recherché car français. J'ai déjà vendu et vendrai dans les semaines à venir d'autres ateliers. j'avais il y a quelques mois fait une vente spécifique atelier de Lyon."

that translates to:
"I am certain about the authenticity of the coins. They come from an old and important collection of bronze coins from Constantine and his family, some of which have been entrusted to me for sale. This collection features many coins of the Arles mint, but also many others. I specifically put in auction some coins from Arles for the [French, ndt] collectors of this mint, sought after because French. I already sold, and will sell in the next weeks other mints. I had already made some months ago a dedicated sale for the Lyon mint."

Jérôme  8)

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2004, 04:42:56 pm »
The sale of a collection would explain all the interesting varieties from one seller at one time, but it does not fit the identical patinas which clearly indicate they are from the same "hoard."  It also seems a revision from the answer posted on CFDL.  So I guess they are from a collection that included the most interesting coins of Arelate from a single hoard.  But the collector also had two identical barbaric immitations from the same dies.  And all the coins appear to be from the same celator.  I have not changed my mind, it will take a concensus of experts to convince me these are aren't fake.    
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2004, 05:09:00 pm »
Here is a barbaric imitation die match:


 

From an important collection with duplicate barbaric types from the same dies and the same hoard?  

Any matches here?  Altered and reused dies?





This one from a different seller.

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Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2004, 06:32:40 pm »
Here is 2 more that I had posted back on page 2 of this thread. Very Similiar busts.


Offline Hydatius

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2004, 10:14:04 pm »
Here's another similar one.  There are a number of others in the e-bay list that I haven't downloaded.  Note the similar legends, faces, and tassels in the back, but the changes in the diadem/wreath and hair.
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2004, 02:36:37 am »
Slight changes, yes, but too many of them are too similar.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2004, 04:18:09 pm »
Many coins from many very similar dies of the exact same type from the same mint or officina is actually a good indicator of genuine coins.  Making multiple dies is what the real celators did and what most forgers will not do.  

Finding die matches can indicate fakes.  Of course die matches are not rare; most dies were used thousands of times.  For provincial types often only one set of dies was used.  A large group of mint state coins from the same dies may be a hoard lost shortly after production or they may be forgeries.  They must be examined carefully.  If they are unusual in other ways they will likely be condemned.  A large number of worn coins from the same dies introduced to the market at the same time must be forgeries.  How could they have been made together, circulated separately and then gathered together again?

Finding evidence that the same die was modified and used again can indicate fakes.  Ancient dies were sometimes modified or repaired, so it isn't conclusive.  But a clever forger might modify dies to reduce the number of die matches.  It would be very suspicious if two coins from identical dies but with small changes were made without apparent reason.  It would be very suspicious if coins from different mints appear to be die matches except for the mintmark.  (I am not sure there are any examples of this in these coins.)

Many very similar dies from different mints and periods is very suspicious, particularly if they appear to be from the same hand and especially if the style is odd.  These coins all appear to be from the same hand and the style is odd.  
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Offline Numerianus

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2004, 04:45:21 am »
A new string of this sellar  is posted.

The first item is this:

Offline Heliodromus

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2004, 08:04:32 pm »
When I open the link, it says that the seller has nothing for sale...

Evan

You can do a search "items by seller" then select "include completed items" to see his closed auctions:

[link removed by ADMIN]

To me these look like a mixture of genuine coins and highly questionable ones.


Offline Numerianus

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2004, 04:12:09 am »
Comparatively to the lots sold earlier, one can notice a certain "uniform"
evolution of the style of the unknown  celator, I would say to the worse.
On the other hand, the selling strategy is more clever since since
genuine coins is added to the string (Valens).   This may  be an indication  that
they are produced  by  "monneron"  himself  (especially, if  recall his strage
story about the origin).

Offline bpmurphy

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2004, 10:53:13 pm »
I'm joining this discussion quite late I see. In fact I didn't notice this subject until I saw that there were 95 replies. I have read only a few of the replies, but I've looked at all the photos, so if I'm repeating a conclusiion that's already been reached I apologize in advance.

In my opinion all of the coins pictured in this discussion with that crappy, powdery looking green patina are fake.

First off the patinas. If we were looking at a single hoard, it would be possible for all the coins to have the same patina, but we are not looking at a hoard. The range of issues and denominations is too broad to represent a single hoard. You never find early Constantines in the same hoard as Magnentius'. The patina is modern in my opinion and chemically applied.

Second, the flans. Under the patina, all the flans are uniformly smooth with the same dark brown color. There is really no variation in any of the flans, from many mint and many different emperors. The flans in my opinion have been mass produced and are wrong for the time period. Most appear to rise slightly at the edge.

Third, the devices. All of the dies, from Constantine to Magnentius appear to have been cut by the same hand. There is a similarity in style that goes from one coin to the next. While there is some variation in the portraits, the underlying style appears the same on all the coins. I don't like the way the letters on all the coins appear in a perfect arc. There are no letters cut too high or too low. The Rome mint Constantine with the seated Roma, the mint mark has been butchered and is completely wrong.

In my opinion none are ancient, all are fake. Study them closely and I'd avoid this seller. You may see them show up with different patinas after whomever is making them realizes the patinas are recognizable.

Barry Murphy

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2004, 06:08:55 am »
This is one of the latest offerings. The style is very good and there are various details that would either indicate this coin as original or a VERY good forgery.

There is the usual patina...

Regards,
Martin

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2004, 07:07:58 am »
If you do a search for items he has won, he has been grabbing some very nice coins lately.  I haven't been able to draw a connection between his purchases and authentic sales yet though.

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2004, 01:17:41 pm »
Er.... sorry to bring this up again Joe, but I happened to spot a coin for sale on ebay whose obverse is an exact die match to my monneron fake, right down to the dotted eyebrows and a small dot visible on the emperor's neck. The reverses, though both of Arles, are different. So, is the second coin also a fake but given a much better "desert" patina or do I retrieve my monneron from the drawer where it was unceremoniously thrown and place it honourably into my collection. To further add to my confusion, I subjected my "fake" to a bit of roughish cleaning and this has revealed clear traces of silvering on the reverse. I refuse to believe that a forger would go to such lengths on a relatively low value coin. But then there is that patina. (I'm not sure about the star between the towers on the reverse either.)


Alex  ???

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2004, 01:20:18 pm »
...and the silvering.

Alex.

Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2004, 10:55:56 pm »
mmm, Not sure that's a die match? The loop at the back of the diademm is different, the lettering looks a bit different, and the way the beads of the diademm lay on the shoulder.... Very minor differences but to my eye still different.

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2004, 11:18:21 pm »
Here`s an RIC 337 from Monneron.

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2004, 11:21:04 pm »
Oops,that first one is a PROVIDENTIAE,but from the same series,here`s a 337.

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2004, 11:22:37 pm »
And another.

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2004, 11:24:24 pm »
One more,any die matches here?

 

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